|
Post by The Blue Ronin on Sept 27, 2011 2:17:35 GMT -5
The Scorpion aren't the only clan who have the option of avoiding the main conflict. The Crab could have chosen to stay on the wall; the Dragon could have chosen to stay in their mountains; the Phoenix and the Mantis could have gone to war with each other. Well if the Phoenix and Mantis had gone to war with one another it would have been part of the civil war, since they support opposing Emperors. But yes, point is taken. I guess I just feel sad that my Clan didn't get a chance to attack the Shadowlands!
|
|
|
Post by Utaku Kasumi on Sept 27, 2011 2:48:32 GMT -5
And I am just sad... that my clan had no choice :S
*goes to hide in the corner*
|
|
Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
|
Post by Tamori Manji on Sept 27, 2011 3:02:34 GMT -5
The Scorpion aren't the only clan who have the option of avoiding the main conflict. The Crab could have chosen to stay on the wall; the Dragon could have chosen to stay in their mountains; the Phoenix and the Mantis could have gone to war with each other. I disagree though, since each of these Clans had the option to be attacked in their own lands. The Dragon could've have been attacked by Kaneka, the Phoenix by the Mantis and the Crab is being attacked by the Shadowlands (and now the Scorpion). All of these conflicts would have made part, in a minor or major degree of the same war, since they would be diverting troops from TR, where the real conflict is. The option for the Scorpion to attack the Crab does make part of the war but, in my opinion, is a poor decision, from a strategical point of view (of course, all of their decisions are hard, but this one is very risky). Why? 1) Despite the Tainted always being the major problem of the Empire (chiefly because of the obvious reason, the Taint, even though it isn't what it was in L5R 1e anymore) and asides for the fact previously mentioned by enishi, by going to the Crab they would have no direct impact in the civil war itself because the bulk of the Crab armies have already left their lands and they don't really need to maintain a supply line (since they're sacking their way to TR in a very samurai-like manner); 2) The Scorpion itself is a Clan ill equipped to deal with the Shadowlands, not only in knowledge but also in types of troops and equipment available. The Wall is not court intrigue, subtlety and espionage, it's brutal battles against endless hordes of goblins and Oni sprinkled with Taint. The truth of the matter is that all Clans, besides the Crab, are ill equipped for that. Still, some, like the Lion or the Dragon (simply because of their more militaristic nature), could do a way better job than the Scorpion. The Crab is what it is today because that is what their harsh job requires; 3) The Scorpion will be positioning itself amidst enemies. It will be forcefully occupying the Crab (I really can't imagine them taking that well or allowing it, after all, ancestral duty), constantly being assailed by the Shadowlands and will have no support whatsoever (which means no supply or reinforcements) from anyone else (because I doubt the Lion, or any other Clan for that matter, will stop their business at TR to rescue the Scorpion, should they ever need); Pushing to reinforce the Crane, on the other hand, could make the conflict move faster (because they would be harrying both Lion and Crab in the process) thus allowing for the war to end sooner and the Shadowlands to be pushed back more effectively by a greater number of troops. Not to mention the fact that not only the Crane would become clearly indebted to the Scorpion but this would "benefit" the Scorpion more (nothing like having the richest and one of the most influential Clans in Rokugan in your debt), in case Hantei wins. If Kaneka wins, well, everyone loses anyway The Scorpion may succeed? Considering the Spider is "only one Clan" and that we play a "game of clicks", yes, they may very well win the battle or at least severely hamper the Spider. And I do wish them luck with it. But the odds of them succeeding surely don't seem good. Just to be clear, I'm simply presenting arguments that are, by no means, the sole truth about this situation. So, anyone can feel free to criticize and bring something else to the table. And sorry for the wall of text ;D
|
|
Kitsuki Yuushahime
Dragon Clan
This person sometimes posts things that are tl;dr
Courtier Magistrate Ambassador Daimyo
Posts: 1,140
|
Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Sept 27, 2011 4:12:31 GMT -5
If the remaining Crab are happy to accept the Scorpion's reason of "for the good of the Empire" and provide them with some jade then there shouldn't be a problem. You underestimate the military might of the Scorpion. They downplay it though so that can be forgiven.
I wonder what Setsuro has to say...
|
|
|
Post by The Blue Ronin on Sept 27, 2011 4:22:21 GMT -5
It's also worth noting that the Dragon and Crab options didn't involve assisting a Clan that's on the other side.
I am sure the Crab players will choose not to pick a fight with the Scorpion. I mean I know the Crab have their pride but attacking a bunch of samurai coming to serve on the wall?
I think the Scorpion are probably fourth-ranked military Clan in Rokugan - the Lion, Unicorn and Crab are all stronger. Probably about equal with Mantis or Dragon. Definitely stronger than Crane or Phoenix.
|
|
Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
|
Post by Tamori Manji on Sept 27, 2011 4:33:43 GMT -5
I am sure the Crab players will choose not to pick a fight with the Scorpion. I mean I know the Crab have their pride but attacking a bunch of samurai coming to serve on the wall? If only it was that nice. The Scorpion action clearly states that they will attack the Crab not serve on the Wall or reinforce it. People may sugarcoat this action, but it is an attack (an attack on a Clan that is being attacked by the Shadowlands). Of course, the Crab can choose to just roll over and give up, but that would only make it more shameful. And Yuusha, I didn't say the Scorpion isn't a strong Clan or militarily competent, I simply said that what they have makes them ill suited for the job. Each Clan has their strengths and weaknesses, no one can be good at everything. You can always bluff to make people believe you can, like the Scorpion do, but you can't do everything. EDIT: Just so we are all on the same page, the Scorpion choices are as follows: Words Cut Like Steel: The Golden PathCourtiers smile behind masks as they use every means available to get their way. With most Unicorn marching with the Shogun, the Scorpion are poised to seize the southern Unicorn provinces. This would put most of the Great Southern Trade Route in Scorpion hands. Words Cut Like Steel: Strike From BelowWith the Lion heavily engaged in the north, it's the perfect time to savage their underbelly. Agents have already been infiltrated via Beiden Pass in preparation for such an eventuality. Naturally, the Scorpion would also temporarily garrison Three Sides River to help defend our Crane friends. Words Cut Like Steel: For the EmpireWith the Crab battling in the east and south, a Scorpion attack from the north would be unstoppable. Yet, this would be merely a deception for our true goal: to reach the Wall and defend the Empire against the Shadowlands and the so-called "Spider Clan".
|
|
|
Post by The Blue Ronin on Sept 27, 2011 4:48:06 GMT -5
Ehh, it's unclear Manji. Apparently Jay has told Senshi-P that a conflict with the Crab is possible but not inevitable and depends on the Crab reaction to the Scorp army showing up.
I don't really understand though... if the Scorpion want to attack the Spider, why do they need a "deception"? It's not an action anybody is going to think less of them for. It's like saying I'm going to attempt to mug somebody as a cover for giving an old lady her purse back.
|
|
Tamori Koichi
Dragon Clan
Dragon Clan * Shugenja * Earth * Void * Yamabushi * Duelist
Posts: 228
|
Post by Tamori Koichi on Sept 27, 2011 5:16:30 GMT -5
I don't really understand though... if the Scorpion want to attack the Spider, why do they need a "deception"? It's not an action anybody is going to think less of them for. It's like saying I'm going to attempt to mug somebody as a cover for giving an old lady her purse back. I'll try to give my opinion on this matter. I am just assuming like everybody else here. The Scorpion are being deceptive because quite honestly they're the Scorpion. They need to hide the motive of attacking the Spider because they, after the vote has decided that their clan will support the Hantei, need to prove their loyalty to the Hantei. And the easiest way to prove that is by attacking one of the clans that are supporting Kaneka. If I'm reading the patterns correctly and the Crab are selected as a target, it should look something like this: 2 attack options for the Scorpion and 1 defense option for the Crab. The 1st attack would be the attack on the Crab itself. This would probably be a facade. The 2nd one would be a Seek the Spider attack. It could go terribly wrong for the Scorpion Champion's plans if more people decide to do 1 over 2. The Spider would probably have a counter job against the Scorpion if this would happen.
|
|
Kitsuki Yuushahime
Dragon Clan
This person sometimes posts things that are tl;dr
Courtier Magistrate Ambassador Daimyo
Posts: 1,140
|
Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Sept 27, 2011 6:21:40 GMT -5
Words Cut Like Steel: For the Empire
With the Crab battling in the east and south, a Scorpion attack from the north would be unstoppable. Yet, this would be merely a deception for our true goal: to reach the Wall and defend the Empire against the Shadowlands and the so-called "Spider Clan".
Sorry Manji - how is it an attack when it is a feint and the only ones being attacked would be the Spider? It might be an attack in appearance on Crab lands but in reality that isn't the plan being proposed by the 3rd option from my reading. Still, it all gets interpreted differently so what do I know?
Ryumon - I think it'd be a deception as they need to appear to be acting in Hantei's interests very openly but in reality they would actually be more acting in Rokugan's best interests, not Hantei's. Hantei would probably prefer them all magically teleport into the capital to help defend him.
Also, they have to be a bit hush about it as announcing that the army moving south was there to crush the spider would give the spider time to move away key people. If the spider think the army is coming to attack the crab further, then they'll deploy more men so even more of their actual troops (not just zombies and goblins) will die.
At Koichi - we cannot be sure. The actions may all be defend the crab if the crab let them pass. It'd be up to Jay to install any attack crab actions and if it is all a big feint and the true target are the spider then i don't see why there would have to be attack crab options. Also, attacking the crab defending the wall would just be messy for the scorpion as then shadow creatures and troops would get through and just attack them anyway!
|
|
|
Post by The Blue Ronin on Sept 27, 2011 6:24:30 GMT -5
I think we really need to wait until we get some clarification from Jay on this.
|
|
Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
|
Post by Tamori Manji on Sept 27, 2011 7:17:42 GMT -5
Yuusha, you make it sound as if dozens of Scorpions hadn't just committed seppuku to prove their loyalty to Hantei. Surely that was all a convoluted plot to draw the Empire's attention elsewhere while the Scorpion do whatever it wants. The result of the votes cannot be ignored, otherwise, all the prattle about me and Masamoto ignoring the Mantis' votes back in August (when we clearly didn't) would have been for naught. If neutrality was an option for them, they would have stayed that way, instead of allowing/inciting an assassination attempt upon the Imperial ambassador to happen on their own home. The "attack" on the Crab could only be allowed to be a ruse if the Scorpion hadn't declared for Hantei, then they could do whatever they wanted. But, as we have all seen, their allegiance, as a Clan, was made very clear. That being such, it makes no sense for the Crab to invite their enemies into their own home and allow them to take charge of their ancestral duty for them. This would be the utmost shame. If they "invite" the Scorpion, they might as well invite the Spider and throw a party, instead of making war. Or, maybe you can argue with me that, in truth, it's all a deception in order for the Scorpion to invite the Crab to attend Hiromitsu's Awesome Games. This argument would be more believable than anything else you've said EDIT: Just adding that now Hiromitsu's Awesome Games (curiously abbreviated as H.A.G.) has a Strip competition (if there ever was a crazy way to implement a Seduction competition, this is it). I look forward to seeing some Crab beauties attending that one hehehe ;D
|
|
Bayushi Hisa
Scorpion Clan
Samurai * Courtier * Dark Paragon of Will * Loyal
Posts: 479
|
Post by Bayushi Hisa on Sept 27, 2011 8:24:20 GMT -5
That entirely depends on the perceptions of the Crab clan. If they believe we are attacking them in earnest - which I am sure quite a lot of Scorpions not on the boards would be doing - they may be forced to give up their assault on the Crane to deal with us, allowing the Crane a chance to refocus their efforts on Kaneka, Mantis, and the Lion. It would also mean Kaneka, Mantis and the Lion would be going up against four armies to their 3.
The Kuroiban says hi. The Crab may have been doing this longer, but to claim they are the only clan prepared to battle the Shadowlands is naive. Every clan has had experience battling Oni, Lost, and other tainted creatures.
It was Akodo that said all actions are honorable in war, and the Scorpion believe that to be true. Assassination, poison, bribery, etc. are how we fight a war. The rest of the clans may enjoy battlefield duels, but assassinating your target in his sleep is a much more effective means of removing him from the field.
Our recent actions in court means we are ill-equipped to directly assault the Lion while Kaneka, the Yobanjin, and the entirety of the Unicorn are riding to their aid. We could steal the trade route but that would be a greater sign of our continued neutrality. Even if our skirmishes with the Crab may be ruse, we are still attacking those who stand against Hantei while simultaneously doing one of our sacred duties, protecting Rokugan from enemies that hide in the Shadows.
|
|
Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
|
Post by Tamori Manji on Sept 27, 2011 8:43:09 GMT -5
I didn't want to continue the discussion but I must say "no". Let me explain what I mean by clearing what appears to be a misconception on your part about the Kuroiban. The Scorpion's Black Watch, as the Phoenix Inquisitors and the Kitsuki, are prepared to and specialized in investigating and dealing with Maho. While Maho and the Shadowlands may go together, they are completely diverse things and knowing how to deal with one doesn't, by any means, imply that you know how to deal with the other. The only Clan that may truly boast of knowing how to deal with the Shadowlands is the Crab. The others know parts of it, many know about Maho (because it is widespread throughout the Empire) but none can match or substitute the Crab in knowledge about the Taint or the many dangers that inhabit the Shadowlands. EDIT: I must say that I meant no ill by this answer. I'm simply trying to explain what roles the above organizations can fulfill in Rokugan.
|
|
|
Post by Soshi Kiso on Sept 27, 2011 8:54:52 GMT -5
Hisa, much love for you. Manji, as much as you seem to be disappointed the Scorpion don't want to run into TR to "save the day" for the Crane.....the Phoenix and Dragon are coming down to do just that. The Dragon are planning to intercept Toturi's army.... The Scorpion have been in communication with Jay-sama for exactly what we hope to do. The actions/votes have a reflection on what we truly want to do... Never forget my clan is deceptive and you may never know our true agenda as we mask our true agenda with about 30 others. If I can give some advise...Spend a little less time complaining that the clan your not a part of is attempting to do what they want to do. The votes will show it in the end. If you focus all your time trying to thwart our vote for what you want.....the Lion are going to walk all over you as they keep siege on the capitol. Then the war really will be over.
|
|
Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
|
Post by Tamori Manji on Sept 27, 2011 9:03:35 GMT -5
Spend a little less time complaining that the clan your not a part of is attempting to do what they want to do. The votes will show it in the end. If you focus all your time trying to thwart our vote for what you want.....the Lion are going to walk all over you as they keep siege on the capitol. Then the war really will be over. As I've already said in more than one occasion, to more than one Scorpion, I have no wish to "thwart your votes for what I want", I'm simply discussing the matter. Now, if you see discussion as manipulation and would like to create phantoms where there are none, I can do naught about that, sorry. I'll tell you what I've already told your brethren when they asked me for my opinion, "I wish you all the luck with whatever you decide". As for my actions here, don't worry, they don't interfere with my marshaling of troops in the least. Although I do believe many of us who support Hantei were dealt a bad hand (simply because many old people who already had hundreds of troops joined Toturi, but such is life, I won't complain about it, everyone is free to choose), you can be sure I'm doing the best I can during this conflict. If you doubt, check my actions in your dynasty page, that is, if I am there.
|
|