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Post by vegandeathmachine on Apr 20, 2011 8:16:35 GMT -5
Do remember that Rokugani culture allows for... political marriages. And that includes ones of the same gender. Both for guys and girls. Not that I'd like to do something like that. Just pointing that if someone wants to - You can. Not sure I'm following your point here. Are you proposing same-sex political marriages?
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Kitsu Hiraku
Lion Clan
Sodan-senzo * Loyal to the Emperor
Posts: 197
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Post by Kitsu Hiraku on Apr 20, 2011 8:46:19 GMT -5
Maybe I'm wrong but I remember things in the RPG rulebook that suggest same-sex political marriages exist (or that may be memories of a LARP I participated in that ended with one. A crane and crab samurai-ko)
And I'm not really for the idea. I just thought that some people might want to have that possibility for some RP shenanigans. And if they didn't read the RPG books they might not know about the possibility. This is why I wrote about it ;P
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Post by tadakasan on Apr 20, 2011 11:26:42 GMT -5
I was under the impression that in the more or less official society of Rokugan, same sex relationships were accepted, same sex marriages don't. Since most marriages are political in nature, it might make some sense that there could be same sex political ones. But the other important part of Rokugani marriages is to produce heirs. I don't know if this was the reason same sex marriages weren't accepted, but...; always been under the impression that marriage itself (not love in the slightest) was all about politics and children in a rigid militaristic society like Rokugan.
THAT SAID... the RPG books also have tons of optional rules and make it very clear to play in the Rokugan you're comfortable in. Whether that be a more traditional feudal Japanese style with decreased rights for women, a more anime style Rokugan where politics is put aside for the sake of action, or a more open Rokugan where tradition is more flexible.
In other words, I see no reason it couldn't happen if we want it to be that way. All depends on the Rokugan we want to portray.
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Post by vegandeathmachine on Apr 20, 2011 13:45:19 GMT -5
Just to clarify:
The player here has no issue with same-sex anything. Nor does the character.
I just don't see how a political same-sex marriage (producing no children) would be advantageous to the clans involved.
Again, I don't have a problem with this at all; I simply suspect the courtiers who arrange political marriages do.
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Post by tadakasan on Apr 20, 2011 13:55:31 GMT -5
*nods* The Rokugan we choose to play in in no way reflects on real life. If it did and I had anything to say about it the Empire wouldn't have a caste system, innovation would be encouraged rather than looked down on, the law would be based on facts and evidence rather than testimony, duels wouldn't be a way to resolve who is right in a matter, and arranged marriages would be uncommon compared to marriages for love.
What that all means is simply that, in so far as what I said above, I see not having same sex marriage as part of the setting, not a personal view of any person on these boards or in the game. Like I also said though, if people really want that to be part of the Empire in EE, I don't see why not; simply would be more rare since it would strictly be political more or less without the factor of children involved.
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Kakita Mitsouko
Crane Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
::Daimyo::Kenshinzen::Hatamoto of Crane Clan::Paragon of Duty
Posts: 1,952
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Post by Kakita Mitsouko on Apr 20, 2011 17:33:31 GMT -5
As Tadaka said, emotional relationships are another issue, like any other setting or place, it’s out of control of the rules or laws. In this case, I think every player can decide better. I will not talk about how play feelings and such. Well, in most of the societies that inspired Rokugani set, the custom of having female concubines was well accepted and completely understandable (if not fully supported) by the wife. The children born from these relationships (samurai+female concubine) were considered legal heirs. In Rokugan, the children are “property” of the men, they carry the family name of their fathers, then of course, producing children would be of no interest for the former clan of the female's part . Anyway, the political bonds from a marriage have much more involved than children. It’s a like non-attack deal, and a backdoor for political treatises that can benefit the two sides involved. In the same rational path, it would allow same political sex marriage (only for men), if they, in one or another moment of life, accomplish his duty of produce more samurai for their clan. The way Rokugany society is portraied, with rigid etiquette and a concern with is proper, and besides, a militaristic tradition, don't open much options for it anyway,. Marriages are business planned with antecedence and precision, most of times. If the male population and male population are equivalent or near of it, there's no reason to same sex marriage. But, of course, if male population is oddly bigger, it could be happen. I don't think, anyway, the society would have benefit in a same sex marriage. Let's think in a male+male marriage, for example. Where they will live, i.e. which daimyo will they serve? if each of them have children with concubines, they will drain together the resources of which clan? The children would bear the name of their actual father or the "dominant" one? Will one of them adopt the clan of the other? How this choice would be made? If these question can be answered with a logic that fits the setting, I would love to play in this brave new world. Well, why I don't even considered political marriages between two women?because we would create a matriarchal society from this, and within three generations, subvert the setting entirely. The Rokugan we can create depends on us. I am favorable to a more centred position, where traditions are followed. There are reasons for Rokugan be like this. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by vegandeathmachine on Apr 20, 2011 17:47:46 GMT -5
This is certainly not a discussion I expected to have today. I am amused by Kakita Mitusoko-sama's blithe dismissal of female-female marriages: "Well, why I don't even considered political marriages between two women?because we would create a matriarchal society from this, and within three generations, subvert the setting entirely." So, are you suggesting that matriarchy would constitute a greater threat to Rokugan than Fu Leng, The Lying Darkness, and the Kolat? ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png)
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Kitsu Hiraku
Lion Clan
Sodan-senzo * Loyal to the Emperor
Posts: 197
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Post by Kitsu Hiraku on Apr 20, 2011 18:02:19 GMT -5
Akihiko: And you think it wouldn't? Because I think it would ;D
Also: Lawl, didn't expect a discussion like this ;D Troll quota for this month achieved ;P
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Post by vegandeathmachine on Apr 20, 2011 18:28:52 GMT -5
I wouldn't see a matriarchy as a threat. Just a pleasant change of scenery ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by tadakasan on Apr 20, 2011 19:25:12 GMT -5
Well, in most of the societies that inspired Rokugani set, the custom of having female concubines was well accepted and completely understandable (if not fully supported) by the wife. The children born from these relationships (samurai+female concubine) were considered legal heirs. Well, we at least have the example of Kaneka if nothing else. But it might also be an example to show how the relationship of children born to a wife and children born to other lovers would work. To be more accurate on this, children take the family name of their parents. Often marriages result in the wife joining the husband's Clan, but this is certainly not always the case. That would be the exception to the rule with the Utaku and the Matsu for instance who usually insist otherwise. The husband also tends to join the wife's family if she is of higher station than him, and nearly 100% of the time if his wife is of much higher station than him. As much as politics is such a large part of Rokugani marriage, I am still under the impression that it wouldn't work this way. While it is true that either of the men in the relationship could in fact have mistresses and thus doing their duty, I still get the impression that more or less marriage is more or less the means by which children are meant to be conceived. While there are cases of children from people besides a husband's wife, it seems to be an exception to the rule as well as somewhat a societal gaff; relationships outside of marriage are supposed to be discreet, so having children from such relationships would largely be seen as somewhat scandolous (which is why Kaneka was known as "the bastard" as well as not favored nearly as seriously for being the Emperor despite being eldest.) Those questions are quite easy to answer since Rokugan largely isn't potrayed to be as much of a patriarchy as you seem to think. As I implied earlier, the question of family names and who joins who's Clan is decided on a matter of politics and station; though you are correct that Rokugan is at least patriachicaly leaning, so sex does factor into it as well. It's simply not the deciding factor to be sure. Just a quick instance was when the Master of Air Isawa Nakamuro got married, he became Tamori Nakamuro when he married the Tamori Daimyo. So to the point, if two men were to get married it would simply go through the same process but without the factor of sex being involved; Who is of higher status, what favors are owed between the Clans involved, and what are the leanings of the families involved in the marriage? In the end a decision would be reached that would be thought to benefit both Clans the most to their satisfaction and to the satifaction of social heirarchy. Not going to say too much on this since I've already said the more typical way the partial patriarchy of Rokugan works. Having two women marry would undermine the system no more or less than having two men marry, and would simply be a matter of (as usual) society, politics, and Clan favors. One note on both of these possibilites (male and female) would be that they would invariably vary in how they are viewed per Clan. The Crab for instance would probably not look fondly on homosexual relations, since they are so dependant on samurai doing their duty to make children to help defend the Empire. The Lion would also likely look on it less favorably due to traditionalism and militarism, though the matriarchal Matsu might prove to be an exception to female/female relations (both from being matriarchal in the first place as well as the precedent of Matsu never having taken a husband). And on the other hand Clans like the Unicorn and Mantis, who are less traditional, would likely be more open to it. Especially the Mantis who don't hold tradition in high esteem and tend to be individualistic. Non-militaristic Clans such as the Phoenix and Crane might also prove to be more open as well since they tend to have less stress on producing children and more allowance for love and pure politics to be involved. --------------------- Anyways, that's just the impression I get from the RPG books. There is that suppliment where things are strongly patriarchal that you can play in, but it is not the default setting for Rokugan. Things that fall within the bounds of the views presented and Clan politics could make many things possibly, if not more or less likely. Oh, and as far as Rokugan turning into a matriarchicaly leaning society where the prejudice is towards males rather then the other way around... it would be interesting. I wonder if there would be families like the Matsu and Utaku who would break the norm in that setting. Perhaps the Hida and Akodo would be patriarchical still. Certainly would be a subtly unique twist on the setting.
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Kakita Mitsouko
Crane Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
::Daimyo::Kenshinzen::Hatamoto of Crane Clan::Paragon of Duty
Posts: 1,952
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Post by Kakita Mitsouko on Apr 20, 2011 20:39:01 GMT -5
This is certainly not a discussion I expected to have today. I am amused by Kakita Mitusoko-sama's blithe dismissal of female-female marriages: "Well, why I don't even considered political marriages between two women?because we would create a matriarchal society from this, and within three generations, subvert the setting entirely." So, are you suggesting that matriarchy would constitute a greater threat to Rokugan than Fu Leng, The Lying Darkness, and the Kolat? ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) Not a threat, but a subversion of the values of most part of the Empire (excepting our well known battle maidens). Both situations of course would generate a new setting. For me, still lays a doubt; if the same genders couple-to-be have the same station (in my conception, the most common sort of marriage arrangement), how is the family's name, and etc, redefined?? I still prefer the old school, but can try other possibilities as well.
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Post by tadakasan on Apr 20, 2011 20:52:10 GMT -5
As a side note to what I said above so far as all the information on how marriages would be done regardless of the sexes of those marrying...
From the sounds of it, since Jay has already stated that gender will be a factor in the game in regards to marriages, it seems that at least as we can represent them in game will be male and female anyways. Not that that should discourage roleplaying decisions, but it is at least a noteworthy thing to think about in regards to what would want to be done regarding these matters.
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Kitsune Keshi
Mantis Clan
Mantis Clan * Shugenja * Daimyo * Experienced * Unique * Loyal
Posts: 126
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Post by Kitsune Keshi on Apr 21, 2011 2:03:24 GMT -5
The Moshi Family of the Mantis Clan is already Matriarchal. I think people Forget this as we currently do not have any active Moshi roleplayers.
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Post by tadakasan on Apr 21, 2011 2:16:16 GMT -5
I did forget to mention the Moshi along with the Utaku and Matsu, Keshi. 大変ご迷惑をおかけして申し訳ありません。 *bows then rubs the back of his head sheepishly*
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Bayushi Senshi
Scorpion Clan
Scorpion Clan * Clan Champion * Samurai * Kensai * Experienced * Loyal * Unique
Posts: 1,891
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Post by Bayushi Senshi on Apr 21, 2011 8:30:38 GMT -5
WAH! Tadaka scribbled on his post!
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