Takezo
Dragon Clan
Shugyosha, Loyal retainer of Toturi, Dragon Champion-in-exile
Posts: 415
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Post by Takezo on Feb 18, 2011 0:54:35 GMT -5
Duels to the death are usually over a serious issue of honor, such as fulfilling a sanctioned Blood Feud, defending oneself against accusation of a serious crime (such as treason or the like), or to adjudicate an insult to one's Lord, clan or family.
More common are duels to First Blood, wherein the first to merely nick the other prevails; such duels are to decide less grave matters, such as personal insults, or even just to decide the outcome of an argument - I tend to assume the duel in question here would be to First Blood, since there's no *honor* on the line, per se, simply the outcome of a political argument.
Another class of duels - particularly popular among the Crane - are exhibition-style duels where the *touch* is proven, rather than by a cut, but perhaps cutting a ribbon which might be pinned to each duelist's kimono. These would mainly be simply to settle an argument about relative skill.
Obviously these are generalities - certainly there are cases of duels to the death simply to settle the matter of relative skill, though these are frowned upon and, one imagines, seldom or never sanctioned by the participants' lords (ie. they are illegal duels); I would imagine such unsanctioned lethal duels to be more common among ronin duelists, who commonly find life cheap and are beholden to no lord (in actual historical terms, the famous duel between Miyamoto Musashi and Sasaki Kojiro on Ganryu island is perhaps the iconic example.)
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Doji Hyuu
Banned
Crane Clan Master Artisan * Magistrate * Courtier * Unique
Posts: 122
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Post by Doji Hyuu on Feb 18, 2011 1:05:54 GMT -5
Takezo, I don't think Musashi and Kojiro are relevant, since we're talking about Rokugan, not Japan.
And I would have thought that, given the issue of Gaijin trade is potentially an issue of disobedience of an Imperial command, it is of the utmost seriousness, on par with treason.
But if you are not willing to put your life on the line over the issue, then that's all there is to it.
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Kakita Kyoshi
Banned
Crane Clan ? Samurai ? Duelist ? Enlightened ? Hero ? Kenshinzen ? Loyal ? Unique
Posts: 213
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Post by Kakita Kyoshi on Feb 18, 2011 2:29:50 GMT -5
That sounds rather obnoxious to have to commit seppuku over a simple duel. Many Iaijutsu duels do not end like this. Many are simply to decide what is and is not right. Besides, no one will face Takezo. He's obviously built for this. Fighting him is tantamount to deciding to seppuku. It's silly. Don't be so sure on this. I believe that my character has a chance to beat him in duel. And I would have thought that, given the issue of Gaijin trade is potentially an issue of disobedience of an Imperial command, it is of the utmost seriousness, on par with treason. There is no treason, the Mantis would surely not treat the Yobanjin as equals so it would be no fair trade. At least that was the point during winter court. The duel is simply be there to show the will of the gods. The will of Tengoku is often figured out by duels, and they don't have to be to the death. As Mirumoto Takezo already said, it is at moment no question of honour, so it don't have to be to the death (except both parties agree on it).
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Bayushi Senshi
Scorpion Clan
Scorpion Clan * Clan Champion * Samurai * Kensai * Experienced * Loyal * Unique
Posts: 1,891
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Post by Bayushi Senshi on Feb 18, 2011 2:30:10 GMT -5
I would not expect the loser of this political debate to have to commit seppukku. Duels are rarely fought to the death because of the waste of one's lord's valuable samurai. And while his example may not be from Rokugan, it filled the roll of providing an example similar to what he was trying to describe, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss his thoughts.
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Doji Hyuu
Banned
Crane Clan Master Artisan * Magistrate * Courtier * Unique
Posts: 122
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Post by Doji Hyuu on Feb 18, 2011 5:03:56 GMT -5
Well, my understanding is that Takezo's opposition to the trade route was based on the idea that he felt it was a violation of Imperial law. Whether or not it's actually treason is basically the matter that's up for debate here, but I would presume that if Takezo felt it wasn't treason he wouldn't oppose it and thus there would be no need for the duel.
But, this is all kind of secondary. The idea of getting a trusted mediator to do the dice rolling still stands. However there is no guarantee that Jay will accept the result as canonical. He doesn't seem to have shown much interest in the concept.
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Kakita Kyoshi
Banned
Crane Clan ? Samurai ? Duelist ? Enlightened ? Hero ? Kenshinzen ? Loyal ? Unique
Posts: 213
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Post by Kakita Kyoshi on Feb 18, 2011 7:56:50 GMT -5
Well, my understanding is that Takezo's opposition to the trade route was based on the idea that he felt it was a violation of Imperial law. Whether or not it's actually treason is basically the matter that's up for debate here, but I would presume that if Takezo felt it wasn't treason he wouldn't oppose it and thus there would be no need for the duel. But, this is all kind of secondary. The idea of getting a trusted mediator to do the dice rolling still stands. However there is no guarantee that Jay will accept the result as canonical. He doesn't seem to have shown much interest in the concept. I am not sure if you are aware that back then during Diamond Edition (or was that already Lotus?) the Crane had actually an alliance with one of the Yobanjin tribes, and nobody called that treason. And if it would be really treason here, I doubt that Jay and Alison had put it to so open discussion during winter court. I got there no infamy nor honourloss. So it must be possible to do that. Somehow I start to really like the idea of trade with the Yobanjin, maybe that could bring peace with them. I hope that Jay will look into this thread and see that we would like to make an impact on this game (when I game mastering for my group I am always happy to see what direction my players take the things and support them always in making the game their own). So it would be best if Jay just look into the character-sheets of Takezo and my character and make the rolls (so we could be sure that everything goes as it should), or he could even do a mission just for me and Takezo in Toshi Ranbo. I am for my part quite curious how this duel might end.
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Doji Hyuu
Banned
Crane Clan Master Artisan * Magistrate * Courtier * Unique
Posts: 122
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Post by Doji Hyuu on Feb 18, 2011 8:09:14 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong, Kenshi, I agree with you that it's not treason, but again, that's what's at issue here. If it definitively isn't treason then there's no dispute, no duel. Takezo can't say "I disagree with your stance because I think you're breaking the Emperor's law, but if a duel resolves that I'm correct I won't treat you as if you're breaking the law, even though the duel has proved I'm correct"
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Bayushi Senshi
Scorpion Clan
Scorpion Clan * Clan Champion * Samurai * Kensai * Experienced * Loyal * Unique
Posts: 1,891
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Post by Bayushi Senshi on Feb 18, 2011 11:00:36 GMT -5
As far as implementation of this so that it could effect the game. That is entirely up to Jay and Alison, and though it may seem that Jay has not shown interest, he typically does read these threads without posting. As I had suggested earlier this could be an interesting way to kick start the interact option. An opportunity for Jay and Alison to test its features.
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Post by Jay Luo on Feb 18, 2011 14:46:09 GMT -5
I haven't got 1-on-1 duels coded yet, so the best way for me to implement this right now is as an iaijutsu tournament. This kind of works anyhow because a tournament would let more players get involved (not everyone is on the forum, after all). I set up two iaijutsu tournaments for this in Dark Edge Village; participating in one of them means you are fighting "against the trade route" while participating in the other means you are fighting "in favor of the trade route". You can only do each one once. Theoretically it is possible to do BOTH if you have the right items, but there is not much advantage to doing so.
After a week or two, the score of the #1 place competitor in each of these tournaments will be compared against each other to determine the outcome.
I'll post a more formal announcement in the news forum in a little bit (in the middle of some other updates right now) but wanted to post this here first in case someone stumbles over these new contests and wonders what they are.
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Takezo
Dragon Clan
Shugyosha, Loyal retainer of Toturi, Dragon Champion-in-exile
Posts: 415
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Post by Takezo on Feb 18, 2011 15:11:57 GMT -5
Well, how cool is that! ;D
Naturally, I've *just* depleted all my fate, but something to look forward to in a couple of hours...
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Kakita Shinji
Crane Clan
Laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone
Posts: 485
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Post by Kakita Shinji on Feb 18, 2011 15:20:25 GMT -5
Sounds very interesting. Especially if you are Kakita Duelist ^_^
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Post by Hida Setsuro on Feb 18, 2011 16:00:55 GMT -5
I'm much happier with the tournament as it is.
Kenshi, I appreciate you coming forward, but this is what you're proving to me.
If there were 1-on-1 iaijutsu tournaments, there would only be a handful of people that could actually do anything meaningful. You, Takezo, maybe a couple of others.
I would be flat-out disgusted if the rest of Rokugan (including myself) were to be cut off from doing something because it would get us killed.
Edit::
And it would quickly become a very dumb thing: "Who's going to throw their life away fighting one of the top duelists in the world?" or What if someone that doesn't use the forums were to participate in something like this? What if they died for no known reason except that they found something they thought was neat?
It would be wrong.
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Kakita Shinji
Crane Clan
Laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone
Posts: 485
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Post by Kakita Shinji on Feb 18, 2011 16:10:14 GMT -5
You die if you aren't #1? o.O
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Post by Hida Setsuro on Feb 18, 2011 17:04:33 GMT -5
You die if you aren't #1? o.O ..No, they're talking about "Loser forced to Seppuku" duels, or at least Hyuu was. Takezo corrected him.
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Kakita Kyoshi
Banned
Crane Clan ? Samurai ? Duelist ? Enlightened ? Hero ? Kenshinzen ? Loyal ? Unique
Posts: 213
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Post by Kakita Kyoshi on Feb 18, 2011 20:37:46 GMT -5
After a week or two, the score of the #1 place competitor in each of these tournaments will be compared against each other to determine the outcome. What happens if I am the best on both sides? I just had made my roll against the trade route (place 1, with a score of 409 and that without my Iaijutsu equipment). will make the roll for the trade route in the next days (one or two level more and then with my Iaijutsu gear equipped), hope that Takezo will beat my 409 to be somewhat of a challenge...
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