Shosuro Motoyami
Scorpion Clan
I am neither madman nor fool. If you dare to cross the Scorpion, I am the consequence you must face
Posts: 155
|
Post by Shosuro Motoyami on Mar 8, 2011 3:30:29 GMT -5
Can you get rid of a sworn enemy?
I find it odd that I have 3 crane allies and two crane sworn enemies... If there was some way that they would each other other (thus still leaving you ineligable for certain mission) would seem most "logical" to me
Regards, Bayushi Moyotoshi
|
|
Kakita Kyoshi
Banned
Crane Clan ? Samurai ? Duelist ? Enlightened ? Hero ? Kenshinzen ? Loyal ? Unique
Posts: 213
|
Post by Kakita Kyoshi on Mar 8, 2011 7:54:41 GMT -5
At moment there is no way to get rid of them. I am in the same boat (it's funny that the Kakita daimyo has enemies within his clan, but such things happen).
|
|
Takezo
Dragon Clan
Shugyosha, Loyal retainer of Toturi, Dragon Champion-in-exile
Posts: 415
|
Post by Takezo on Mar 8, 2011 12:17:09 GMT -5
I suspect a daimyo has more enemies within his own clan than the average clan samurai does! (modern analogy: who incurs greater ire from his fellow countrymen, a politician or a man on the street?) As for having friends and enemies within a given clan... I can't see that as contradictory: a Crane agent tasks Samurai Bob to investigate rumors of bribery, resulting in suspicion )and rumors) implicating a certain Daidoji merchant - presto, Bob-san has earned a Crane ally *and* a Crane enemy. I shudder to imagine how many Dragon enemies Takezo has as champion, even if those aren't reflected (yet) in-game - we certainly have some policy disagreements in the private forum, and I can think of several prominent Dragon who vote against me in-game!
|
|
Shosuro Motoyami
Scorpion Clan
I am neither madman nor fool. If you dare to cross the Scorpion, I am the consequence you must face
Posts: 155
|
Post by Shosuro Motoyami on Mar 8, 2011 12:50:38 GMT -5
yes, that is all fine and good for RP and in theory.
however, since Jay has started to create actions that use sworn enemies as a "lockout" condition, I think there should be some way that the allies cancel out the enemies, purely in terms of qualifying for these new jobs. I'd rather have seen "must have crane ally" to support the kakita daimyo action, than "not have a crane enemy".
Say, I have two crane allies and two crane enemies, then I should be "zeroed" out in regards to having a "sworn enemies".
While I understand what jay is trying to do with the new actions, it has had the unintended concequence (or perhaps intended) of preventing a large number of people from being able to utilize said action, including the Kakita Daimyo himself!
Bayushi Moyotoshi
|
|
Takezo
Dragon Clan
Shugyosha, Loyal retainer of Toturi, Dragon Champion-in-exile
Posts: 415
|
Post by Takezo on Mar 8, 2011 13:07:06 GMT -5
I have to disagree.
I think the idea in EE is that "RP" tales precedence over "being able to click everything so you don't miss tokens and drops".
Rendering certain jobs as inclusive and/or exclusive allows two characters to experience different "stories", and (in my view) enhance the interest level of the game.
Granted, it's a learning process insofar as implementation goes, but I strongly disagree that every decision should be reversible or that every job should be accessible to everyone.
That said, I do agree that Crane Enemy should not prevent support of the Kakita daimyo *in principle*, but in the absence of a "Kenaka is your Ally" drop - probably a better impediment to supporting the Kakita daimyo (but nonexistent at present) - it's probably the best mechanic.
As for an additive model of allies and enemies, I just don't see how that makes logical sense. If you have two Crane allies and two Crane enemies... you still have two Crane enemies! The allies are nice, but why assume that they are entirely occupied with blocking your enemies? No one can be everywhere at once.
|
|
|
Post by tadakasan on Mar 8, 2011 13:16:04 GMT -5
I think it ~would~ be nice if there were a way to get rid of Sworn Enemies myself, using up appropriate items (using up allies to get rid of enemies) but it should definitely be difficult to do over and over in the extreme without wasting countless hours proving yourself. Not to mention it should be something painful resource-wise; Lots of Fate for little xp, and quite possibly a glory / honor hit or getting some infamy even for doing so.
I agree that not ~all~ actions should be reversible, but it seems OK to me RP wise that if you supplicate yourself enough before a Clan that you could be able to (with a considerable loss of face) admit you were wrong and eventually prove yourself not an enemy any longer.
|
|
Kakita Kyoshi
Banned
Crane Clan ? Samurai ? Duelist ? Enlightened ? Hero ? Kenshinzen ? Loyal ? Unique
Posts: 213
|
Post by Kakita Kyoshi on Mar 8, 2011 13:23:01 GMT -5
Togashi Hitomi had in the News thread an brilliant idea to prevent folks from voting on both sides. I think his idea of invisible drops should not be too hard to script for the game. Votes should not tie in with allies and enemies, it should be a free decision, but we all are on the same side with the preventing the playing on both sides thing. So each new vote should have its own invisible drop that prevents you from voting the other side too. So the game would use the excluding factor that at moment the enemies are, without the drawbacks the enemies bring to the game.
|
|
Isawa Kinen
Phoenix Clan
All is equal before the Void.
Posts: 117
|
Post by Isawa Kinen on Mar 8, 2011 13:25:42 GMT -5
I seem to recall someone suggesting a while that you could get rid of enemies through Random Encounters. I rather like this idea. It shows constantly that your enemy is out to get you, even when you least expect it. Perhaps a new set of Random Encounters could be made, depending on the area.
For example, similar to "Endangered Rival" that I seem to get all the time fighting the Yobanjin, there could be "Endangered Enemy" with the options of Helping and Hindering. What the exact job requires will be dependent on the enemy and area, as I don't imagine a Crane Sworn Enemy will be found in the battlefields, but definitely in courts.
These Random Encounters could give items "Token of Friendship" or "Weakness in Enemy" or something like that, I'm just coming up with terms. After you get 10 of either, you could use them in another Random Encounter with an enemy.
The Friendship one will get rid of your enemy, but you probably spent way more Fate to get it and much less EXP. If you're apologizing to your enemy, you're also probably losing lots of Glory and Honor as well. Again, skills, items and areas required should vary by the Enemy.
The Weakness one will do the same, but you'll definitely get Infamy, to go with it because it's more implied you're finding ways to kill your enemy, either by literally stabbing them, poisoning them or just leaving them to die on the battlefield. Again, how this works varys by Enemy.
TL;DR : Random Encounters based on your enemies. Those give you items, which you can later use to forgive or kill your enemy.
|
|
|
Post by tadakasan on Mar 8, 2011 13:31:08 GMT -5
The problem with simply having the invisible mastery is it does not take into account any past actions. While I admitted I would like to see sworn enemies have jobs to get rid of them with some hard work and penance, that does not mean I think those who would choose not to get rid of them should be barred from voting certain ways.
Having just the invisible lock once one way is voted makes sworn enemies absolutely inconsequential, and that is definitely a bad idea in my mind. If there is no consequence for making enemies of a Clan, why even have the Sworn Enemy drop in the first place? Just because it is a little stringy right now in the fact you will never be able to do either one of the votes certainly doesn't warrant always being able to do either one. There is a middle ground, within reason.
|
|
Kakita Kyoshi
Banned
Crane Clan ? Samurai ? Duelist ? Enlightened ? Hero ? Kenshinzen ? Loyal ? Unique
Posts: 213
|
Post by Kakita Kyoshi on Mar 8, 2011 14:31:26 GMT -5
The problem with simply having the invisible mastery is it does not take into account any past actions. Yes, and why should they? People change their mind on things. People support others who the think is the least worse options. Enemies don't fit into how people vote. It's like Hillary Clinten would not have voted for Obama (maybe she has not, but she could do it despite the fact that she would have liked to become president herself). The Enemies should have an impact on the game (like preventing people from doing certain things the enemy don't want you to do), but it should not matter on how people like to vote. That decision should have consequences is something we all want, but it should happen in another way. Don't think the shogun would stop anyone from slandering the Kakita daimyo just because you are not his enemy (that makes no sense). On the other hand, the Crane love it to be the nice guys, so I doubt anyone would allow to show support for the daimyo even if there is a personal issue between them (it's just not the way Crane deal with such things), and I am not the only Crane who would like to vote for Kenshi but can't because there are so many Crane enemies out there. I am sure there are much more Crane enemies out there than Kanaka Enemies, which makes the whole vote pointless, since it don't show how the players truly think, it just tell us who was able to vote in spite of the requirements. So even if the support for Kenshi should win, I would not see any meaning in it, because it was set-up with restrictions that prevent people from having a free choice.
|
|
Bayushi Senshi
Scorpion Clan
Scorpion Clan * Clan Champion * Samurai * Kensai * Experienced * Loyal * Unique
Posts: 1,891
|
Post by Bayushi Senshi on Mar 8, 2011 14:55:12 GMT -5
I would like for there to be actions to remove enemies, like with taint and infamy. I would not like for them to be random encounters, because then you have to deal with him. What if we chose to keep our enemy? a random encounter must be dealt with before you can move on, unless one of the actions would be to ignore the enemy. I think standard actions would work better.
|
|
|
Post by tadakasan on Mar 8, 2011 15:05:59 GMT -5
Well here's the thing about what you're saying though; you say Enemies should have an impact on the game such as preventing people from doing certain things, but isn't that exactly what is happening here?
On the other hand, if you're saying that voting is the wrong place to put such things (and I get the impression that you are since you are arguing that the voting should be the will of the players), then it would probably make the most sense to have those limitations in the own Clan's lands if I'm thinking correctly. So much like it makes sense that where the Shogun is marching you can't do some of the things with him as an enemy, it would then make sense for you to be unable to do some things in Crane lands with a Crane sworn enemy. Which actually does make more sense to me than putting it here, so in that sense I am agreeing with you.
I'm sure the problem there lays in the fact that, more or less, the Crane lands have already been populated with missions. As have the other lands, with other Clans you can get sworn enemies from. Hind-sight is 20/20, but I think it might be too late to start implementing mission restrictions on jobs in Clan lands based on Sworn Enemies, if for no other reason than the fact that the missions are already made. Other than that, there is always the fact that if they were tacked on to existing jobs, it would be quite unfair to people who are newer and did not have time to get said missions to Jade mastery pre-restrictions.
Really, other than that, if you're not putting them in existing locations current jobs and you're not adding them to new "votes", then the only way to implement sworn enemies mattering would be to do something like add them to new random encounters perhaps, or add new missions to locations that already have missions in the various Clans' lands. Adding them to random new random encounters could work, but it would mean coming up with new random encounters and making it so that you would run into said random encounters enough (and the other options would not be appealing enough for the encounter) to make having sworn enemies actually feel like a burden apart from just not mastering one of the options from some occasional random encounter. As to the second one, that is more possible I think; something like adding high skill missions to various lands. They would have to be something more than existing missions, which would be tough considering you can already train with the Kouriban, the Kenshinzen, parley with the Phoenix Inquisitors, and get magical tattoos in the Dragon lands. But it could be possible.
Anyways, to the point; it's a question of how to make sworn enemies have a ~meaningful~ impact on the game in a way other than the way they're currently being implemented.
|
|
Shosuro Aroru
Scorpion Clan
Scorpion Clan Ninja * Duelist
Posts: 625
|
Post by Shosuro Aroru on Mar 8, 2011 17:03:55 GMT -5
...Quite frankly I have problems with this on both a roleplay side and a general gaming side. On the roleplay side, as it's been said before, some random putz is your sworn enemy and somehow he can get his entire clan to lock you out, even if you have more allies. Also the way the enemies have dropped, simply for speaking against a viewpoint they have is oddly harsh. The only way to avoid enemies in this game as it goes on will to be either never pick a position or always pick the same clans position. People should be able to support a clan in one decision and not support them on another without becoming sworn enemies for life. On the gaming side you're locking people out of actions that appear to have game changing consequences, such as votes. Not to mention no one is told the results of doing certain actions ahead of time and some of them such as the mentioning reservations are not phrased in a way that makes you think you're going to get an exclusionary drop from doing it.
|
|
Kitsu Hiraku
Lion Clan
Sodan-senzo * Loyal to the Emperor
Posts: 197
|
Post by Kitsu Hiraku on Mar 16, 2011 13:58:57 GMT -5
I do understand that the shogun might lock you out of his war council because he considers you an enemy (Althought, at least for me, the quest didn't suggest that making the shogun an enemy of yours would be the outcome. But maybe I just consider my actions always being reserved and polite. Opinions not judgements ) but I don't understand why would he stop me from slandering some of his other enemies. I consider my character as being rather away from politics, and because of that I don't really support a side but I rather choose the things that I consider best for the empire. That's why I'm pretty mad that the game doesn't allow me to RP while doing quests. Especially if an enemy is someone unimportant or he'd have no reason to stop me. Tl;dr : Jay, Y u force me to choose one side? Y make characters act illogically?
|
|
Agasha Taeshik
Banned
Phoenix ? Shugenja ? Elemental Master ? Air
Posts: 73
|
Post by Agasha Taeshik on Mar 16, 2011 14:04:18 GMT -5
I think "enmity" is kinda strong. I didn't attack his province, slap his face, or violate his woman. I had a verbal dialogue. Imagine what our governments would be like if, every time someone disagreed with a Senator or other politician, they got put on an enemy list that prevented them from ever talking to that person again. It also seems to assume that, if I agreed with him there, I've always agreed with him because this guy tends to cut you off completely once you disagree with him.
And thing is, most of us didn't even disagree. We allowed our opinions to change a few times. "Yeah, you have a good point". "Oh, that's true, that's a better point." "True, he didn't actually think of that...". Wasn't like most of us vehemently opposed him, I know I personally made sure to support him more times than I opposed him, meaning that in the end, I supported him, but despite that, I'm his enemy? o.O
Maybe 'Disfavor' would have been better, and milder use of it.
|
|