6/24/2011: Hantei vs Toturi (some OOC explanation)

[Jay Luo]

I've gotten some questions about this, so here is some OOC explanation about how I think the Hantei vs Toturi conflict will end up working. I thought this would be helpful in order to set player expectations and so that people can make rational decisions. (Of course, it is possible that the players may surprise me and this plan will get severely derailed at some point. Such is the nature of games with players.)

Currently there is a Hantei faction and a Toturi faction, and it is possible for players to support one or the other (or, possibly, neither).

Every Great Clan (except the Unicorn) has some clan-only actions somewhere in their territory where they can lobby for their clan to support either Hantei the 40th or the self-proclaimed Toturi the 3rd (formerly known as Kaneka) as Emperor.

The Unicorn automatically are supporting Toturi the 3rd due to his heroic action against the Yobanjin.

None of the minor clans will declare for either side this early, as that would invite utter destruction. So they are currently waiting to see which way the wind blows. This may change once lines are more clearly drawn between the camps.

The Spider Clan is not officially recognized as a clan by the Empire, and thus is unable to formally declare for either side. This may change. I am given to understand the Spider are very interested in formal recognition.

Individuals are free to declare for whichever side they want. Once you are officially a Hantei or Toturi supporter, certain actions may be opened to you...and certain other actions may be closed.

After a decent time period (probably a month from when this started), I will tally the votes cast by each Great Clan and this will be used to determine who that Great Clan will officially support. (If it is VERY even they may remain neutral.) I will be counting the in-game lobbying actions for this purpose; it is possible that this may contradict whatever consensus has been reached by players on the forum, which would be awkward for RP, but the actual game actions really must dictate the outcome.

There will be an opportunity for members of those clans who end up on the opposite side of the official clan position to recant their previous support and fall in line with the official position (albeit at some personal cost). However, this is not required; it may be that your character's honor will not allow you to change sides. This is totally okay and could make sense "in character". Of course, it may result in personal conflict and general drama.

Once the Great Clans have decided who they will support, more consequences will occur. It is hard to say exactly what these will be, as it very much depends on who takes which sides. But it is likely to involve war, diplomacy, spying, and samurai drama.

Hope this helps. Have fun!

[Takezo]

Very nice!

I should note that Samurai drama, like French New Wave films and Spanish novellas, never ends well.

[Ojii]

GREAT!

[Kakita Shinji]

You're the best Jay

Jun 24, 2011 15:12:26 GMT -5 Jay Luo said:

There will be an opportunity for members of those clans who end up on the opposite side of the official clan position to recant their previous support and fall in line with the official position (albeit at some personal cost). However, this is not required; it may be that your character's honor will not allow you to change sides. This is totally okay and could make sense "in character". Of course, it may result in personal conflict and general drama.

Yeah. You're the best EE just keeps gettin' better.

[Agasha Shodai]

Hey, Jay, any thoughts on the idea that I put in on the Toturi thread?

rokuganee.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=news&action=display&thread=961&page=18

[Utaku Kasumi]

Ok, all is nice and sweet... and I lub Jay for doing it all... but I have some personal... "hell no" thing (not to what he's doing... well... I think).
1. I don't like it that I am forced to pick one side - and I am not gona change it, no matter the cost.
2. IF I am correct... Emperor sent Shogun Kaneka to support Unicorns - it wasn't Kaneka's decission to help us, right? Or am I wrong here?
Because to me... Emperor is to rule. Shogun/Samurai are his katanas to fight for him... so all votes "because Emperor sits on his throne and Kaneka is fighting for us" is a BS to me here.
IF Kaneka was sent by Emperor... WHY do Unicorns gloryfy him so much? It was his duty! Unicorns' land are still Empire's teritory - so Emperor (sooner or later) would order to help with protecting it - even if it's Unicorns' duty to protect their land.
And here is the question... if Emperor sent Kaneka to support Unicorns... why do we have to be forced to support Kaneka who was doing what he was told to do? Shouldn't we support Emperor who has seen us fighting enemies and sent Kaneka to help us?
I am a bit lost here... so would be happy to get an answer here about those events.
3. What happens when (Unicorns' case) the whole clan is with Kaneka... but some people support Hantei? Are you taking vote of the whole clan or every single person? (Again, I hate it to be forced to do something against my believes).

[Shosuro Aroru]

...Kaneka took it upon himself to raise an army and march to the Unicorn's lands. This in itself could have been seen as an act of treason since he didn't have the emperor's permission to create a new title or raise an army. Unfortunately Jay has locked your clan into siding with Kaneka. You can join Hantei in toshi ranbo and perform pro-hantei actions still, but you can't convince your clan to join with the rightful emperor.

[Utaku Kasumi]

Aroru I know that I can join Hantei there. Already done that, against my Khan's will (as I've said it many times... I hate to be forced and same Kasumi does).

I was just curious about Emperor's and Kaneka's issues with going to help Unicorns.
So... if Kaneka raised his army without Emperor's blessing... that should be... To me it is simple choice.

[Shoju]

Jay-sama,

It is true that we are looking for some official recognition. I'm unsure if you have read it all so far, but There is a thread in the Spider Private Forums that contains my proposal, and as you can see, there was a light bit of discussion, but (from the people who frequent the private boards), no dissenting opinion on the course of action.

If it would help / if you need it, We can get more discussion going in that thread to formalize an opinion, but I think that most of us like / agree / find interesting the proposition that I made.

Bows deeply,
Arigato Jay-sama

Shoju.

[tadakasan]

Jun 24, 2011 16:59:14 GMT -5 Utaku Kasumi said:

Aroru I know that I can join Hantei there. Already done that, against my Khan's will (as I've said it many times... I hate to be forced and same Kasumi does).

I was just curious about Emperor's and Kaneka's issues with going to help Unicorns.
So... if Kaneka raised his army without Emperor's blessing... that should be... To me it is simple choice.

1) Unless Kaneka does something outward against the Unicorn, that is unlikely to change yes, seeing as it was his initiative that saved a major Unicorn holding from being destroyed. The Khan is most grateful at the moment for Kaneka's bravery and initiative, as well as disdainful of Naseru's slow response and politicking more than likely.

2) The Emperor most certainly did not send Kaneka; the Shogun acted of his own volition. Whether one sees this as treason or a heroic act will depend on your mindset. The Emperor did eventually raise an army to help under the command of Yasuki Hachi, the Emerald Champion. But with the slow response time and slowly moving army the battle for Mountain Watch Keep was already over before the army had barely left the Emerald Champion's castle. On one end that means Kaneka's actions were without permission and on the other it means the battle was ended swiftly with many lives saved.

3) We probably won't get a definite answer to this question, probably better that Jay surprise us as usual anyways. But my thoughts on this would be either a case of Kaneka feeling betrayed and denouncing the Unicorn, a sort of civil unrest within the Clan with debates and contests and such, or possibly the reverse with actions in game to "betray" the Shogun who was hastily put on a pedestal by the Khan.

[Shagi the Mad]

Of course, the fact that Kaneka has a huge army on Unicorn territory has nothing to do wth the Khan's decision...

[bodhibloodwave]

Ofcourse not, the fact that Kaneka could likely crush the unicorn if they said they support Hantei obviously has nothing to do with the way they declared automatically

[Tamori Koichi]

Jun 24, 2011 17:05:42 GMT -5 @tadakasan said:

2) The Emperor most certainly did not send Kaneka; the Shogun acted of his own volition. Whether one sees this as treason or a heroic act will depend on your mindset. The Emperor did eventually raise an army to help under the command of Yasuki Hachi, the Emerald Champion. But with the slow response time and slowly moving army the battle for Mountain Watch Keep was already over before the army had barely left the Emerald Champion's castle. On one end that means Kaneka's actions were without permission and on the other it means the battle was ended swiftly with many lives saved.

I agree with you on number 1 and 3. Number 2 I think is sort of misleading.

Jan 30, 2011 19:24:31 GMT -5 alison said:

While the Emperor has given no official statement on the Yobanjin situation, the Shogun has issued a call for samurai and their troops to marshall in Toshi Ranbo.

Mar 1, 2011 3:00:03 GMT -5 Jay Luo said:

Emperor Hantei the 40th has officially proclaimed his support for the Shogun's march against the Yobanjin, praising Kaneka's swift and decisive action. The Shogun's army has now crossed the river into the Unicorn provinces, and his generals have begun planning for the upcoming battle.

Results of the Shogun's March debate at Toshi Ranbo:

Actions expressing concern over the Shogun's march: 5019 (47%)
Actions supporting the Shogun's march: 5569 (52%)

So you can see that even before the Emperor sending the Emerald Champion, the Emperor had already acted. The Emperor supported Kaneka. Yes, in RL times the proclamation took about a month but I'll point to the fact that the Emperor's decision relied on in-game voting. I was anti-Kaneka, but with this I still helped the Shogun since indirectly it was following the Emperor's orders. For me, without the Emperor's acknowledgement and the loyal samurais support, Kaneka would not have been able to defeat the Yobanjin.

Regarding the Unicorn support, I guess Jay was thinking of the worst case where every clan loyally supported the Emperor. By putting the Unicorn to Kaneka's side, there would at least be one solid support for the Shogun.

But this is just my view of things.

[tadakasan]

Don't get me wrong, the statement "The Emperor did not send Kaneka", as true as it is, is misleading in a way, you're right. But then, so is the statement that he officially proclaimed his support; Naseru didn't have much of a choice.

First off, Kaneka had a large army and he had none built up. If he had opposed Kaneka's march he would not only have been opposing the slim majority of those at his court that favored the march but also instigating a large army that was parked not to far from the capital. Instead, the Emperor had to wait until he could have the Emerald Champion make his own loyal army to oppose Kaneka.

Another fact to take into account is that there was also no reason for Naseru to stop Kaneka at the time. Sure if he had he would have stopped Kaneka from gaining any glory in battle, but he could possibly kill two birds with one stone if he just let Kaneka march; Kaneka's army, even if it did not win the day, would at least buy time for the Empire and take out a lot of the enemy. And for the other possibility, there was always the chance Kaneka would be hurt or die in battle. The few reasons for Naseru to stop Kaneka at the time didn't nearly outweigh all the reasons he had to make his official position to support the Shogun.

This is all conjecture of course, but it all fits so well together. Not with just what happened then but what is happening now.