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Post by Isawa Goro on Sept 6, 2011 20:27:53 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido#Historical_development"By the time of Imagawa Ryoshun's "Regulations" at the beginning of the 15th century, the Bushidō ideal was fairly clear, and the term itself came into widespread use." The Tokugawa era began at the beginning of the 17th century. What you may be thinking of is the fact that the Tokugawa Shogunate (not necessarily Tokugawa himself, mind) actually incorporated bushido into law, prior to that it was just a very strong moral code. But the idea that Tokugawa invented the values of bushido to fit his political goals just doesn't add up.
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Tamori Manji
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Post by Tamori Manji on Sept 6, 2011 21:07:00 GMT -5
It's not that he invented it, we all know he didn't (codes of conduct are seldom the invention of an individual), but that he ably used it to control the samurai caste and it "flourished" under his dynasty.
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Post by Isawa Goro on Sept 6, 2011 21:25:16 GMT -5
I guess I misread Kentaro's post about bushido being a bedtime story told by Tokugawa. To me that implied that that was an explanation for why bushido is what it is, not just one historical use of it.
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Tamori Manji
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Post by Tamori Manji on Sept 6, 2011 21:47:25 GMT -5
Well, only he can say what he meant by that. For me it implied that it was the Tokugawa who made the most use of it and it was because of them that it was so amply divulged and applied. Which doesn't mean it was created by them. They simply saw a good opportunity to ease their control over a problematic caste and seized it.
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Post by Isawa Goro on Sept 6, 2011 22:09:34 GMT -5
You see I think it's not true. I don't think when the bakufu incorporated bushido into the legal code, they made it more widely accepted or understood. They weren't promoting it, they were just acknowledging what was already the reality, that it was the main factor that determined the way samurai behaved.
Bushido was already widespread and well known and important before the Tokugawa ever touched it.
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Post by Isawa Goro on Sept 6, 2011 22:33:06 GMT -5
It's true that bushido wasn't as simple as the L5R version, partly because it evolved over time while the L5R version seems to have been static.
As to whether it had much to do with how wars were waged, maybe? I'm not sure about the conduct of individual Samurai but the Sengoku wars were actually pretty consistent with bushido - as it stood it actually offers some justification to rebel if a Lord is poorly behaved. In that it has a lot in common with the less well-codified feudal codes of Europe, that by setting a universal standard of behaviour for everybody (or at least everybody in positions of authority) it offers an excuse for an inferior to judge a superior and either attack him or consider his power illegitimate.
The idea that it's honorable to serve a dishonorable Lord is definitely an L5R interpretation of bushido.
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Shosuro Motoyami
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Post by Shosuro Motoyami on Sept 7, 2011 14:16:39 GMT -5
Bayushi Kamada committed seppuku to demonstrate the sincerity of the Scorpion to the Hantei. Bayushi Tanaka openly defied the Emperor in Imperial Court. Pro Kaneka: +11,428 Glory Pro Hantei: +4,137 Glory
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Shosuro Aroru
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Post by Shosuro Aroru on Sept 7, 2011 15:26:23 GMT -5
...I have a feeling there's a typo in there.
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Kakita Hiroshi
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Post by Kakita Hiroshi on Sept 7, 2011 15:51:09 GMT -5
...I have a feeling there's a typo in there. I was waiting for someone to say that...
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Toku Hirotomo
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Post by Toku Hirotomo on Sept 8, 2011 3:15:40 GMT -5
Seems only the lowbies are choosing the action. As stated, I would seriously conciser doing it if I was not married already. I'm afraid I made bad choices in the past, got too many sworn enemies. I'll admit having the man I'm trying to put on the throne be my sworn enemy is a little leery for me, perhaps a fresh start is due. I've attained nothing I hold all that dearly to. Though I don't want to see another Minor Clansmen fall to the Great Clans, I'll admit, a certain Siren has been calling me to the Ikoma Shadow Lion School. Perhaps temptation will take me, perhaps not. I'd just like that death to mean something for the cause. Perhaps there will be another thing like this, where we can throw out lives away for our choice of Emperor. Time will tell and whatnot I suppose.
And since the highest ranking deaths get ancestor status (At least that held true for the Great Clans, I'd find it cool if someone was able to get Toku Kenpachi as an ancestor. "Died whilst mooning the false Emperor. His Cheekiness shall be remembered."
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Bayushi Senshi
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Post by Bayushi Senshi on Sept 8, 2011 5:13:16 GMT -5
Cheekiness.... lol
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Kitsuki Yuushahime
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Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Sept 8, 2011 6:03:31 GMT -5
"As will his grim visage of death. No man has ever managed to maintain such calm - only sobbing and mewing like a little baby for a mere three and a half minutes before dying - after being shot in the ass by a legion of archers. Of course, no other man has before died this way..."
*Shudders*
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Akodo Tomatsu
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Post by Akodo Tomatsu on Sept 8, 2011 6:16:34 GMT -5
Hirotomo, we'll be happy to have you amongst the Lion. You would do us proud.
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Shosuro Motoyami
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Post by Shosuro Motoyami on Sept 8, 2011 11:02:18 GMT -5
Kentaro-
While an interesting treatise on bushido, would you please be so kind as to continue said discussion in a different thread.
Many thanks
Moyotoshi
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Post by kentaro on Sept 8, 2011 11:05:40 GMT -5
Moyotoshi -
While I do not feel I was that off-topic compared to some things that end up in the news threads, I have gladly moved my reply to Isawa Goro-san to General Discussion, under the thread Bushido Discussion.
Isawa Goro-san, and all other comers -
I eagerly await any replies or rebuttals to my posting. Please do not consider my moving of my posts to be an admission of defeat, or anything other than a courtesy.
Tsuruchi Kentaro, Apparently A Scholar.
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