Toku Hirotomo
Monkey Clan
Bushi Paragon of Compassion Clan Champion Toturi's Army
Posts: 793
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Post by Toku Hirotomo on Sept 12, 2011 0:14:17 GMT -5
I did not decide. The coin I flipped did.
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Post by sprinkles on Sept 12, 2011 0:18:12 GMT -5
Does that mean that us Spider that have sworn to support Hantei are more honorable than the Toturi?
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Alesha
Spider Clan
Fallen Crane * Duelist * Bloodspeaker * Tactician * Maho-Bujin
Posts: 418
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Post by Alesha on Sept 12, 2011 0:34:09 GMT -5
We're comparing absolute zero to water freezing zero?
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Shagi the Mad
Crane Clan
Fallen Crane * Scout * Mad * Shadowlands * Experienced 4 Hiruma Shagi
Posts: 180
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Post by Shagi the Mad on Sept 12, 2011 3:26:05 GMT -5
If the fool Kaneka had not put ambition above duty, then we would all be defending the wall without other distractions...
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Post by Akodo Tsanuri on Sept 12, 2011 3:31:04 GMT -5
if Hantei-dono performed his duties Kaneka-dono wouldn't claimed for throne
and if grandma had moustache she would be granpa
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Alesha
Spider Clan
Fallen Crane * Duelist * Bloodspeaker * Tactician * Maho-Bujin
Posts: 418
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Post by Alesha on Sept 12, 2011 4:48:35 GMT -5
Those are words of traitor not a samurai. Who is Kaneka to judge Emperor?
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Post by Mirumoto Shigekazu on Sept 12, 2011 5:56:21 GMT -5
His older brother.
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Post by Kakita Ren on Sept 12, 2011 6:06:18 GMT -5
His older brother who gave up his claim to the throne. It does not matter who is the better man, we do not talk of men, we talk of emperors. Kaneka was a hero, a great man, son of a great emperor. It is not enough to make him an emperor himself. Regardless of that, the issue has become the wall. Whoever we believe must be the leader of our empire, we must all agree we cannot let it fall to the shadowlands. The crab are attacking my people, if they cannot defend the empire at this weakest point, then we must!
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Post by Doji Kenna on Sept 12, 2011 6:08:00 GMT -5
While Kaneka-sama is indeed the Emperor's senior, that does not give him the right to question his sovereign in such a public manner. In private the bonds of filial respect should be maintained, and I would not wish to comment on how that manifested. In public however, the Emperor is Emperor, even to his siblings, that supercedes.
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Kitsuki Yuushahime
Dragon Clan
This person sometimes posts things that are tl;dr
Courtier Magistrate Ambassador Daimyo
Posts: 1,140
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Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Sept 12, 2011 7:25:35 GMT -5
1. It's up to the Emperor to decide how his older brother can address him in public and how he can speak to him Kenna - do not decide for Hantei. If Hantei remaimed quiet while Kaneka spoke ill of him then he is condoning that man's action when it would be so easy for him to issue punishment. As the Shogun is also 2nd highest in status within the Empire, you have no right to criticise his actions. Only the Emperor can. You are welcome to grumble quietly of course but you only have your opinion, not fact. Only Hantei and possibly the Emerald Champion had the right to discipline Kaneka
2. Ren - Can one truly give up a claim to a throne? One may say they discard something but if someone brings it back to you and forces it upon you again then your past words are all that ends up discarded. Toturi's advisors urged him to reconsider his past words and he did. Samurai are entitled to change their mind. You may argue it is dishonourable but some of the greatest samurai... and Emperors... within Rokugan's history have not been the most honourable in nature. The fact remains that Kaneka had a claim to the throne. Him discarding that does not change his blood. The issue therefore becomes whether one's past words are legally binding in Rokugan. While we have honesty as a virtue to consider, this issue murkies the waters. How? What if Kaneka had meant "I renounce my claim to the throne in favour of my brother (on the reasonable assumption that he will perform the duties of Emperor properly)". What if Kaneka was merely making a statement such as "i renounce it for the time being" or "i will not act upon my claim as I am currently satisfied". These are aspects to consider as well as whether his words were a vow or merely a puff. If Hantei had died without an heir then Kaneka would certainly have been elevated to the position of Emperor - regardless of his previous words. The fact remains he had a claim to the throne through succession the only way to bindingly be rid of this would be for him to be stripped of it by the Emperor - such as to be declared a traitor or maho user or to be exiled for some crime. Hantei did none of these. You may argue he has now labelled him a traitor but that came after Kaneka changed his mind regarding his inheritance and declared himself the rightful Emperor. The issue therefore becomes, once again, whether Kanek had the right to change his mind. Unfortunately again, based on his status, that is something that only those with equal or greater status can decide. Perhaps a duel between the Emeperor's Champion and Kaneka could have settled the matter? *shrugs* This is academic. The point is one cannot void Kaneka's bloodline and all that entails
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Post by kentaro on Sept 12, 2011 7:53:30 GMT -5
Well put, Kitsuki-san.
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Post by Kakita Ren on Sept 12, 2011 8:15:22 GMT -5
Kitsuki-sama,
I am humbled to have recieved a reply from yourself. You are a credit to the Emperor that you have chosen to serve, even if it is my belief that you have chosen incorrectly.
Although I would never dream to question Kaneka's bloodline or his decent from the honourable and noble Toturi the fact remains that his claim is no longer of import, the highest authority in our land is that of the Emperor, he is the highest in the celestial order. None can question his authority and when Kaneka stepped back he gave that authority, that place to his brother.
If we accept that Kaneka, as the oldest son of Toturi I was the true heir, then he was unquestionable as the Emperor when he gave his mandate that his brother will serve in that position. When Hantei XL gave his madate that Kaneka should loose his name and become pheonix he did so as Emperor and was as unquestionable.
Kaneka has weathered much under this unquestionable rule, much that from a man who was not the Emperor could be called spiteful and perhaps even dishonourable. Many amongst even Hantei's supporters would admit that Kaneka is the better man. But Kaneka made his brother the Emperor. As much as he and others, even amongst Hantei's supporters, may regret it, he cannot take that back.
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Alesha
Spider Clan
Fallen Crane * Duelist * Bloodspeaker * Tactician * Maho-Bujin
Posts: 418
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Post by Alesha on Sept 12, 2011 8:41:48 GMT -5
Also allow me to point out that Kaneka's mother was a geisha and he is bastard son.
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Kitsuki Yuushahime
Dragon Clan
This person sometimes posts things that are tl;dr
Courtier Magistrate Ambassador Daimyo
Posts: 1,140
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Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Sept 12, 2011 8:42:55 GMT -5
Now those are actually some better points Ren. Well thought out and actually addressing those issues I talked about. My thanks.
I would actually think of conceding the issue were it not for Hantei's faulty governance. Also your argument rests on a hypothetical of Kaneka being the true heir and therefore the Emperor at the time. Unfortunately, one is only Emperor when certain criteria are met. This is why there is no Emperor during those small periods in between the reign of one Emperor and the next. Still, you make points well worth considering and again I thank you for that. I am not convinced that Kaneka gave up his claim or could even do so unless he was officially recognised as the Emperor at the time and then discarded his position - but I am at least now less certain on this line of thought.
Still, my primary argument has always been that Hantei allowed himself to fall out of the position of Emperor by not acting as Emperor. Of course one cannot judge an Emperor's actions as right or wrong... and that is why I technically do not do that. I judge a man's actions as not being actions of an Emperor - he has relegated the position. I won't talk at length on this again as I have done in many other posts.
Still, thank you Ren for insightfully responding to my criticisms of the earlier line of thought
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Kitsuki Yuushahime
Dragon Clan
This person sometimes posts things that are tl;dr
Courtier Magistrate Ambassador Daimyo
Posts: 1,140
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Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Sept 12, 2011 8:44:55 GMT -5
Also allow me to point out that Kaneka's mother was a geisha and he is bastard son. Allow me to point out that even if your mother was the same you would still be a samurai from your father if he were a samurai. Only having one parent as a samurai is no shame. Particuarly when that parent was an Emperor. Be careful criticising the actions of a past and successful Emperor. One man may call it a failure but in his divine wisdom, perhaps he saw ahead and realised that a son through such a union would help or even save the Empire...
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