Toku Hirotomo
Monkey Clan
Bushi Paragon of Compassion Clan Champion Toturi's Army
Posts: 793
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Post by Toku Hirotomo on Sept 12, 2011 9:08:11 GMT -5
Indeed calling Toturi III "The Bastard Son of a Geisha" is very close to calling Toturi I "That Geisha Loving Deviant."
Kakita Ren, you make wonderful points and illustrate your arguments more eloquently than I've seen lately. Perhaps the Hantei should have sent you as his ambassador. Though the Spider may very well have tired to kill you too, so I'm not sure how much of a complement that is.
I've lost faith in the divinity of the Emperors. The true leaders are gone and all we have left are men, not Gods. I look at things a little differently than my cousins. My Grandfather's story is well known, we know what he accomplished, Toturi I was the disgraced leader of the Akodo family, and he became Emperor. The Heavens have remained silent. They don't care. This is a battle of men. I've beaten that horse though, not only to death, but to past death, and I'm beating it in Medio.
Many times we're just repeating the same tired old phrases. We'll be debating this until Winter Court.
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Post by kentaro on Sept 12, 2011 9:46:02 GMT -5
Personally, I am at a loss for any argument, real or hypothetical, that could shake my convictions on this issue. I assume most are the same.
No, steel, not words, will settle this matter.
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Alesha
Spider Clan
Fallen Crane * Duelist * Bloodspeaker * Tactician * Maho-Bujin
Posts: 418
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Post by Alesha on Sept 12, 2011 10:32:58 GMT -5
What deviant has to do with bastard son & geisha loving - those are facts. Oh let me guess... Monkey logic.
As to our dearest Kitsuki's comments - not being son of Emperor and Empress = being a bastard. And bastards are not legitimate claimholders to throne last I checked.
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Shosuro Aroru
Scorpion Clan
Scorpion Clan Ninja * Duelist
Posts: 625
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Post by Shosuro Aroru on Sept 12, 2011 10:44:24 GMT -5
...All argument would have no bearing if people just admitted the truth. Kaneka has no legitimate cause for rebellion(the only two being an insane or tainted emperor) and simply wants to take the throne through force of arms. If you can accept why you're rebelling then let's move forward to the swinging of swords and the strongest arm wins. Don't try and defend your actions by being more honorable or somehow it's the "right" thing to do. It's what you want to do, own up to it. There is one incident that people try and use to claim that Hantei was a bad emperor and that was his slow response to the Yobanjin invasion. I hardly think one incident qualifies as just cause for rebellion. Simply put, own your actions, don't try and justify them away.
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Post by The Blue Ronin on Sept 12, 2011 10:45:05 GMT -5
"Can one truly give up a claim to a throne?"
There is a very long histroy of it.
During the reign of the first Hantei dynasty (I consider Hantei Naseru to be the Hantei restoration) the younger brothers of the Emperor, when they became adults, left the Hantei family joining the Otomo or Seppun or Miya, and gave up their claims to the throne as they did so.
Nobody ever challenged their renunciation. It has a very long and accepted history, this stradition.
But yes, nobody is going to change their mind at this stage. (Not least because the game mechanics doesn't allow you to change sides once you've chosen!)
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Post by kentaro on Sept 12, 2011 11:29:18 GMT -5
That said, I do enjoy all the insulting behavior that occurs in the name of honor. And, to name one historic "bastard" who did all right: William the Bastard.
You might know him by his later nickname: William the Conqueror.
And to Shosuro-san:
One could also argue that those who support Hantei do so out of desire to keep their positions, rather than have to defend them under a new regime. Thus, they cravenly cling to the old order, knowing they would be unable to justify their power and titles under a new Emperor.
One could say that, but I won't. I'm not going to pretend to some insight into the hearts of others that permits me to state their motives. Please don't pretend to know my heart, and I'll return the favor.
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Akodo Keisuke
Lion Clan Mod
Lion Clan Regent ?Samurai ?Daimyo ?First Among Generals ?Tactician ?Commander ?Loyal
Posts: 704
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Post by Akodo Keisuke on Sept 12, 2011 12:07:43 GMT -5
There are new actions on related to the continuing battle on page two at Permission City.
Two new actions for the Hantei and one for the Toturi supporters.
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Enishi
Dragon Clan
Ninja * shadow * tattooed * Mad prophet of Nothing
Posts: 254
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Post by Enishi on Sept 12, 2011 13:06:37 GMT -5
Damn, why are we the only side using up heroic opportunities? This can't seriously be just because Toturi supporters are a bunch of scumbags, traitors and honorless dogs and there are no heroes among them.
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Shosuro Aroru
Scorpion Clan
Scorpion Clan Ninja * Duelist
Posts: 625
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Post by Shosuro Aroru on Sept 12, 2011 13:13:34 GMT -5
...The new heavy infantry action drops heroic opportunities at a pretty decent rate though.
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Toku Hirotomo
Monkey Clan
Bushi Paragon of Compassion Clan Champion Toturi's Army
Posts: 793
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Post by Toku Hirotomo on Sept 12, 2011 13:30:32 GMT -5
We're saving our heroics for the Capitol AKA: The more important battle. Burn 'em now lads, cause we're just saving up.
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Alesha
Spider Clan
Fallen Crane * Duelist * Bloodspeaker * Tactician * Maho-Bujin
Posts: 418
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Post by Alesha on Sept 12, 2011 13:33:58 GMT -5
Save them up. Traitors won't need them.
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Post by bodhibloodwave on Sept 12, 2011 14:48:41 GMT -5
my apologies Toku Hirotomo but the spider have not tried to kill the Hantei ambassador as far as I am aware, You may continue to slander my clan obviously, but it does not make it true in any sense.
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Post by Yasuki Kanosei on Sept 13, 2011 2:14:47 GMT -5
No, steel, not words, will settle this matter. Absolutely correct. In an Empire like the Emerald one, the man (or woman) on top is the one with the biggest stick. Honour is very good and all, but might is what keeps an Emperor ruling.
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Toku Hirotomo
Monkey Clan
Bushi Paragon of Compassion Clan Champion Toturi's Army
Posts: 793
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Post by Toku Hirotomo on Sept 13, 2011 3:55:17 GMT -5
You're not a Clan, Spider. I remember the vote quite well. And I think another vote will find you guilty of aforementioned attempt. Should have done better. So lucky that Shosuro Aroru-sama caught you just in time.
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Post by Doji Kenna on Sept 13, 2011 5:49:03 GMT -5
1. It's up to the Emperor to decide how his older brother can address him in public and how he can speak to him Kenna - do not decide for Hantei. If Hantei remaimed quiet while Kaneka spoke ill of him then he is condoning that man's action when it would be so easy for him to issue punishment. As the Shogun is also 2nd highest in status within the Empire, you have no right to criticise his actions. Only the Emperor can. You are welcome to grumble quietly of course but you only have your opinion, not fact. Only Hantei and possibly the Emerald Champion had the right to discipline Kaneka It is an honour to attract response from you Kitsuki-sama, forgive me if I seem forgetful; I was not aware we were so familiar as to allow for the lack of honourific. In response to my comment: it is indeed for the Emperor to decide how his brother should address him in public, I was merely enunciating the standard etiquette and tradition of Rokugan. I would also add that I certainly do not presume to speak for the Emperor, but if I may be so bold, such should be the same for any Rokugani. It is just as presumptuous for you Kitsuki-sama to declare that the Emperor condones, or should have punished. As for the matter of questioning the Shogun, surely questioning the Emperor despite the justifications, unsupported by fact or sufficient testament, is a greater crime. Fact, nor opinion dictates that samurai, bound to serve, such as ourselves, should not question the Emperor as is occurs. Please note, I have no desire to return to the often repeated arguments of the Loyalist and Rebel factions, I was merely explaining my position in response to your criticism.
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