The Way of the Warrior Question!

[Bayushi Hiromitsu]

I was thinking about what clans are more adherent to Bushido and which ones adhere less? It seems that the Crane, Dragon and Lion are the easiest to classify. The Crab it's a tough matter.

What clans, in your opinion is the MOST and LEAST honored?
Which adhere to most tenents of Bushido? Which adhere less?

Please justify your answer.

(Pls keep it classy)

The code of bushido was originally set forth by the Kami Akodo as instructions intended for bushi alone; its intent towards courtiers and shugenja was debatable. Despite this, bushido had become the code not only for bushi, but for the whole of the samurai caste.


Gi (Honesty and Justice) - Set lies aside. A samurai does not make honesty or justice a matter for debate; he knows that there is only truth and falsehood, justice and injustice.


Rei (Polite Courtesy) - A samurai is neither a bully nor a brute killer. He must treat his enemies with courtesy.


Yu (Courage) - Only fear of death can destroy life; the samurai replaces it with an understanding of danger.


Meyo (Honor) - Praises and curses are not what defines honor; the samurai reserves his judgement for himself.


Jin (Compassion) - Just as the farmer does not grow crops merely to fill his own belly, the warrior does not fight for himself alone. A samurai must be constantly aware of the duty to protect others.


Makoto (Complete Sincerity) - A samurai's words and his actions are one and the same. To 'promise' would be redundant.


Chugo (Duty and Loyalty) - Actions and their consequences define those who take them. The samurai's loyalty to those that he guards for is unshakeable.

[Bayushi Hiromitsu]

(bushido info taken fron l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Bushido ).

[Agasha Shodai]

I seem to recall they covered this in the 4th ed PHB...

[Akodo Tomatsu]

Well Shodai, as I've noticed during my astute studying of each clan in EE, I have found the players tend to not stick to their clan guns so much, so a study of each clan in EE would be nice. Just to see how all the players feel and what directions they want to take their clans in. Its nice that we finally have a place where we can exercise all of our "what ifs". Just this humble, liberal Lion's point of view.

[kentaro]

I will stay silent on the matter, given my very strong opinions on the subject. I have a thread somewhere on the matter...

[Bayushi Hiromitsu]

Sept 13, 2011 16:43:40 GMT -5 @kentaro said:

I will stay silent on the matter, given my very strong opinions on the subject. I have a thread somewhere on the matter...

What opinions? May I know them?

[kentaro]

It's under "General Discussion", the thread "Bushido Discussion".

Basically, it's my opinions/research on Bushido in pre-modern Japan. It was my reply to Isawa Goro-san's wikipedia citing contention that Bushido was a motivating philosophy for the samurai.

Short answer: no, it wasn't; it's a romantic ideal that held no bearing in the period.

More to the point of this discussion: I love intellectual discussions. Thank you for starting one, Hiromitsu-san. Between this and your hilarious cartoons, you are a cultural treasure.

[Bayushi Hiromitsu]

First things first.

This is a matter of opinions. But, to allow myself to give mine, I also should make a effort to understand other's opinions and made sure to respect that. Even if I do not agree with that.

To me, the more attuned with bushido is CRANE and DRAGON.

DRAGON
Gi (Honesty and Justice) -
Rei (Polite Courtesy) -
Yu (Courage) - Well... Hum...
Meyo (Honor) -
Jin (Compassion) - That's the trademark of the dragon,
Makoto (Complete Sincerity) - Ok, Ize Zumi are quite mad, but in his way are sincere.
Chugo (Duty and Loyalty) - Taking some important characters aside, the majority of the dragon its quite loyal.

CRANE
Gi (Honesty and Justice) -
Rei (Polite Courtesy) - Even when they deal with people that misspoke their names, or with brash letters they keep it polite.

Yu (Courage) - Do far,
Meyo (Honor) -
Jin (Compassion) - Well, they have some brash ones that could use some cold bath.
Makoto (Complete Sincerity) - They are, if this does not make them to be unpolite.
Chugo (Duty and Loyalty) - They are not only Loyal, they are a organized clan with active leadership.

Any questions?

Ah, of course. This is NOT a Hantei/Kaneka issue. So pls, leave it at the door.

[Bayushi Hisa]

Scorpion

Gi - We are always honest, we even lie honestly. And our magistrates are brutal and swift in dispensing justice.
Rei - Of course we are polite. More so than many of the active Cranes on this board.
Yu - It takes courage to defy a champion
Meyo - umm....
Jin - I would believe many of us are compassionate
Makato - the best retorts, insults, and deceptions are complete and sincere
Chugo - Be loyal or go in the grove.

[Asahina Yukihime]

It all depends on how idealist is the setting you're playing with. Some people may play like the real stuff, where you can't tell the honor of a samurai by spending a void point

If your setting is more based on a real/historic Feudal Japan, well, honor is not the most important thing. What matters most is "do people believe that you're going to do what you say/said you are going to do?"

If you play in a romantic/idealistic setting (what is harder and more fun, imo) then you have to take honor to a "next level", hum... perfection level? (It sounds weird from a Crane >.o sorry).

Anyway, I don't think it is possible to answer your question. The behaviour of individuals (who may or may be not honored[1]) can't be directly associated to a mesure of clan "amount" of honor (well... unless you're playing a clicking game, then... just sum )

And, of course, courage is to die or to move on agains all odds? Is Sepukku an act of Yu or an act of Meyo? Or both?
The above question is just an instance of some kinda of question that will hardly achieve a common understanding agreement.

[1]in whatever definition you like

[Bayushi Hiromitsu]

I don't know Hisa. I think we could do better than that. At least with Rei (Polite Courtesy) and our trademark Chugo (Duty and Loyalty).

I agree with Yukihime at some level at least. "Honor" is a tough subject.

I think that, part of the fun of this game its to represent your clan of choice. As such, are we not responsable for the clan we belong? I would like to belive so.

Even if I won't ever say "your playing it wrong", after all, I don't know the motivations, the dreams the merits and the flaws of every character here, I can say what SEEMS, in my point of view, right or wrong (in the Bushido matter).

[Asahina Yukihime]

Well, then, to simplify my point of view: every clan have an specific role¹ and there is honor in fulfilling that role in the way it is best for the empire.

Even considering Bushido, Bushido doesn't stands for itself (imo) Bushido relies on subjective definitions of values.

We could say that it is brave (Yu) to fight the shadowlands and hold the wall. We can assume that killing the evil foes is fair (Gi), evil guys deserve to die anyway. It can be done in a compassionate quick way too, may be the crab do it as fast as they can (Jin). This is all their duty (chugo) as their Kami swore to keep the wall. They treat the oni with the courtesy (rei) a oni deserves, would be wrong to call then oni-san, and to give then the same respect a samurai deserves. And sincerity (makoto) speaks for itself, just keep the wall, whichever way they like, but keep it. And all this behavior honors the clan (meyo).

Of course, other clans will have other interpretations of those values. But it is all "adjustable" to the interested of everyone. So everyone can be honored in different ways because the different roles. And, disagreement will rise. From a game development point of view it is important to rise or clans wouldn't fight against each other.

¹ well, may be not the Unicorn or, I can't yet understand their role

Sorry, I wrote in FF >.o hope it is understandable, can't dbl check right now >.<

[Bayushi Hiromitsu]

O.o

...*heavy thinking*...

Ok, Touché Yukihime. -_- Good point there.

[Mirumoto Machu]

Hiromitsu, on behalf of the Dragon I thank you for the comparison with the most honorable Crane. At least I am takeing it as a compliment despite what some others may think.

The reason for your high estimates of the Crane and Dragon are because - <Begining generalized stereo type as shown in fiction>- Is because we Dragon do not care about the opinions of others and act only as we see honorable. The Crane care so much about what others think they will only act in the way defined as honorable by their mother Doji and her brother Akodo.

Oh course none of the clans are truely flawed and player characters are whatever the player makes them.

[Utaku Kasumi]

Sept 14, 2011 20:58:55 GMT -5 Asahina Yukihime said:

Well, then, to simplify my point of view: every clan have an specific role¹ and there is honor in fulfilling that role in the way it is best for the empire.

(..._

¹ well, may be not the Unicorn or, I can't yet understand their role

Hoooou?
Are you sure of what you say?

* The finest cavalry. We came back, bringing many "updates" for items used in Rokugan. For example saddle (as for me you can all ride on that wodden one - enjoy your back aches).
* You consider us barbarians... but it was Unicorn clan that decided to deal with dangers that might occur to Rokugan from the ouside and went to search for it - just so your asses might be safe.
And now what, you call us names, because we use different weapon, wear a bit different clothes and we prefer horses over humans? Jokes aside.
You say you are loyal - which one of your Great clans would decide to voluntary exile the way we did so Emperor and the Empire were safe? This is also... a courage. Courage to leave everything behind for the sake of those that can't do what should be done. Courage to spend your whole life away from your beloved land, people... family etc. This is also what you call "duty".
You are honest? You never lie? Courtesy is one, big, fat lie. See what you do in the shadows... when no one is watching. Behind the backs of so called friends. But we, we have no need for lies. We say what we think and what we have in our hearts - after that you call us barbarians.
Compassion? As Scorpions could say anything about that. There are, of course, clans that take a good care of their people... but look at Unicorn clan. We, without people of lower status, would never make it for so many years away. We treat them with a respect they deserve. And it pays back. There are reasons for us to be rich, right?
Sincerity - we do what has to be done. For ages. And we do not back on our words. We die for it.


Our role? To guard your butts from what might come from Burning Sands. We know what resides there. And you?

- And so on, and on... do not piss a Unicorn off... otherwise he/she will tell you everything that he/she has in her/his heart

(Half IC/half OCC - so no offence )