Enishi
Dragon Clan
Ninja * shadow * tattooed * Mad prophet of Nothing
Posts: 254
|
Post by Enishi on Oct 7, 2011 16:15:31 GMT -5
I think their choices were "attack the Lion", "reinforce Toshi Ranbo" and "stay at home and watch the game on TV". I'm glad the first one was chosen since the second one would have basically been useless like the Phoenix one It bears mentioning that the Dragon vote is the kind of action where you can fail even though you meet the Courtier requirements. So if you're a low-level player and don't want to waste your fate and favours, make sure to equip all of your Courtier gear and beat that requirement by 10 points if you can manage it. I know I wasn't happy to find out.
|
|
Bayushi Hisa
Scorpion Clan
Samurai * Courtier * Dark Paragon of Will * Loyal
Posts: 479
|
Post by Bayushi Hisa on Oct 7, 2011 16:23:07 GMT -5
I see this as being a very Dragon way of fighting a war. Debate and watch, move to battlefield, debate and watch, fight or run, debate and watch, etc.
|
|
Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
|
Post by Tamori Manji on Oct 7, 2011 16:53:37 GMT -5
Koichi, although I do agree with everything you've said about how you view the Dragon actions, what you've said is exactly that, how you view things. Unfortunately, there was no indication whatsoever in game that those courses of action were taken (main army staying behind at Kyuden Tonbo, traps being laid near the river, scout force advancing, among others). I agree with you and those strategies, especially considering the Dragon kind of magic, are very sound and adequate. But, unfortunately, there was nothing to indicate that any of those measures were taken and that only small groups of scouts, not the whole army, had crossed the river. Even Jay suggested as much. In this case, although I agree with all your points, I must say that a quick vote to adapt the Dragon actions to the new battlefield conditions was a necessary thing. This is mostly a clicking game where we have to deal with what is offered and described to us. If it was a P&P game, I would support your ideas 101%. But it isn't, so, I must say, the best we can do is deal with the hand we have and adapt. After all, what would be the point to argue with Jay, or anyone else for that matter, that, per example, the Dragon armies were at Kyuden Tonbo, having sent only skirmishers ahead, when we had no mechanical indication or description of that? EDIT: I also hope that our initial votes influence the conditions of our departure. I believe that, if the initial actions go well, we will have less problems with Lion skirmishers harassing our main forces while they retreat or fight Kaneka. Or Kaneka's scouts harassing our forces while we fight the Lion. These are just speculations but I do hope my efforts to jade those two jobs will mean something
|
|
Akodo Taiyo
Lion Clan
Lion Clan Hero ? Samurai ? Tactican ? Shireikan ? Honorable ? Loyal
Posts: 196
|
Post by Akodo Taiyo on Oct 7, 2011 17:34:51 GMT -5
If the Lion people should get to whine that they have the biggest army and are the Masters of War (which I do not contest), then it should also pass that the Dragon and the Phoenix as Masters of Magic should be able to focus on those fields during this war. Guess I just find it ironic that this vote now happened mostly because non Hantei supporters werent happy with the results. This is complete hogwash, and the only whining I see is coming from above. I'd say there was a very interesting discussion, involving many interested parties, tossing around facts, conjecture, and even a little bravado drawn from lots of interesting sources. Just be thankful Jay stepped in to help sort things out.
|
|
Daigotsu Daisuke
Spider Clan
Former Lion Bushi - Newly Initiated Maho Tsukai
Posts: 330
|
Post by Daigotsu Daisuke on Oct 7, 2011 17:38:33 GMT -5
As a toturist if the dragon move to the river do we have to engage? I mean our goal isn't to wipe out the clans per se i mean wouldn't toturi want the dragon to remain in tact if he takes over rokugan? I mean if the dragon are going to play a game they are good at, then why should toturists play that game? Its not to our tactical advantage to harm the dragon and if we can keep them holed up in the mountains... why not do it? Id rather keep them there than fight them. But thats just my opinion
|
|
Shosuro Aroru
Scorpion Clan
Scorpion Clan Ninja * Duelist
Posts: 625
|
Post by Shosuro Aroru on Oct 7, 2011 17:39:43 GMT -5
...No I agree with Koichi. This is very clearly stemming from all the conversation about how the Dragon were going to be trapped in a pincer move because of how things worked out. This isn't a Jay decided this out of the blue. The majority of people talking about this were Toturi supporters like it's always been. Whenever something happens in game each side argues about how it supports them more. It's very clear that arguments here influence Jay, so it's encouragement for people to make them. Reality is being shaped by people making ad hoc arguments.
|
|
Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
|
Post by Tamori Manji on Oct 7, 2011 18:00:32 GMT -5
Aroru, Jay himself said that the Dragon army would be in a difficult position. That means the whole army had crossed the river. Otherwise Jay could've simply said "no, they won't be, they haven't crossed the river" or something like that. Why would he make us think something if that wasn't the reality of things? He also have said that all the armies were following the shortest and fastest way to their destination. So, why would we assume otherwise?
I understand your points and I can see how this favors Toturi, but, in my opinion, Jay made the actions taken by the Dragon very clear. Which was why I've suggested those options. This isn't a P&P game where we can argue in real time about what everyone meant or think is happening. Jay makes his posts, clarifies the situations, create the actions and its up to us what we do with it. What exactly do you think should have been done here?
|
|
Yasuki Chad
Crane Clan
Crab Clan
*Crab Clan Courtier *Experienced *Samurai *Daimyo *Hero *Experienced *Commander
Posts: 476
|
Post by Yasuki Chad on Oct 7, 2011 18:38:20 GMT -5
Same for the Dragon Senshi. Over 500 more votes... it certainly is interesting! Another shocker - look at the Phoenix results! Also, the Mantis seem to mostly be very united! As do the Lion of course. The Crab are the most united though! Wow! Good to see only a few fought their own Clan. Probably a certain Yasuki... That would be me! Also, I'm putting all my dragon favors and fate at the moment to TURN AND ATTACK THE TRAITOR!
|
|
Akodo Taiyo
Lion Clan
Lion Clan Hero ? Samurai ? Tactican ? Shireikan ? Honorable ? Loyal
Posts: 196
|
Post by Akodo Taiyo on Oct 7, 2011 19:08:54 GMT -5
I'm concerned as well with the timing of this vote. It depicts that the Dragon officers have not been thinking of Kaneka all along. What happens when the Dragon end up choosing to attack Kaneka? Do all our efforts of jading and even emeralding the attack actions on castle of the swift sword just go to waste? At the time everyone was on the unknown grounds of not knowing where everyone's army was headed. Toturi was still in vote at the same time the Dragon were and the situation could've easily gone the northern route or southern to deal with the Scorpion. This is more of a portrayal of the willingness to focus on the ever changing battlefield. I would assume if the vote did go to assail Kaneka directly then the efforts against the Lion wouldn't be wasted, but I suspect the real fight with the Lion would have to simply wait until after the (successful?) heading off of Kaneka's group. Plus, you know, nearly 59% of the Dragon do support Toturi...at least according to click counts at Lonely Shore City (shout out to Keisuke for compiling those numbers). Seems like the Dragon are pretty well divided to me, and that indecision is shown in the actions that are before them today. Of course, as a Scorpion, I don't have to mention that to you
|
|
Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
|
Post by Tamori Manji on Oct 7, 2011 19:16:15 GMT -5
Taiyo, I don't wanna rain on your parade but LSC doesn't indicate the Dragon's loyalties in the least. I, for one, was too busy with TR and PC to click on it (shortage of troops is a harsh reality to me, since I'm not high level).
If you want to analyze where each Clan's loyalties lie you have to use data from larger battles that ran steadily for longer, like TR. But yes, the Dragon is divided, as is the Scorpion... and the Phoenix is but an afterthought in everyone's minds. A shame but nothing can be done about it.
|
|
|
Post by Soshi Kiso on Oct 7, 2011 19:41:36 GMT -5
PC and LSC aren't the best examples of division. Toshi Ranbo was the one battle with equal amount of actions. Given that a huge chunk of players don't really read the forum, most of them are only going to do the actions till whatever level of mastery they want, then stop performing it. So in any battle that doesn't not have an equal number of actions, we aren't going to see a true reflection of the player base mightiness.
Not that I think each battle should have an equal number of actions, just want to make it clear how lopsided battles will be in various situations. (like how screwed the Mantis are going to be at Seawatch Castle)
|
|
Yasuki Chad
Crane Clan
Crab Clan
*Crab Clan Courtier *Experienced *Samurai *Daimyo *Hero *Experienced *Commander
Posts: 476
|
Post by Yasuki Chad on Oct 7, 2011 19:47:50 GMT -5
The battle actions at Seawatch are not as one-sided as Lonely shore either. The mantis players likely have a larger starting stockpile of a somewhat uncommen (or at least annoying to farm) item. But the Crane have a cheaper use of said item. The larger Playerbase of Hantai supporters should kick the Mantis off Seawatch with little problem.
Until the Crab advance up from Lonely shore and rip the Walls of Seawatch down around them that is.
|
|
Kitsuki Yuushahime
Dragon Clan
This person sometimes posts things that are tl;dr
Courtier Magistrate Ambassador Daimyo
Posts: 1,140
|
Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Oct 7, 2011 20:26:44 GMT -5
really? I thought this vote happened because of the dragon clan saying they didn't like the position they were in. At least that was my perception of things. My perception of toturists being upset about the dragon army being there was because the dragon army was there to kill them. I would be upset too? o.O I thought so too Senshi. The Toturi people couldn't control what the Dragon were doing so none of them complained because it wasn't our vote. Only the Hantei Dragon and other Hantei people complained. The Toturi people, such as myself and Shige, offered our opinions but we weren't complaining about the situation cause frankly we are Toturi supporters. Bad things happening to Hantei side makes us happy. However, we would prefer that our Clan doesn't get screwed over! Edit: As posted on Dragon boards for Hantei Dragon... "I am personally a bit offended by all these accusations that the Toturi side decided the Dragon policy. Jay asked for suggestions from the Dragon - not just the Hantei Dragon. Shige and I offered some, as did others. Some were Hantei supporters like Manji. Also, the Toturi side weren't complaining at the pickle the Dragon found themselves in - why would we?! "Oh, look, our enemy is in trouble. Let's complain!" Does not make ANY SENSE. I don't get offended that easily but it seems quite a few Hantei players have chosen to ignore reality on this matter and be annoyed that the Dragon choice of attacking the Lion was not super well coordinated and left their army in a precarious position and are blaming the Toturi people for the choices now facing the Dragon. This is ridiculous. Even without any Toturi people commenting or offering suggestions the Dragon would still be in this situation regardless - would you prefer only being able to attack the Lion with the 3-1 click requirement in the back of Jay's mind and not announced or do you prefer to have everything laid out and a choice of 3 actions? This al benefits the Hantei side. I really do not see why you are all complaining!" Having everything in the open is a plus. You should be celebrating >_<
|
|
Kitsuki Yuushahime
Dragon Clan
This person sometimes posts things that are tl;dr
Courtier Magistrate Ambassador Daimyo
Posts: 1,140
|
Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Oct 7, 2011 20:32:49 GMT -5
...No I agree with Koichi. This is very clearly stemming from all the conversation about how the Dragon were going to be trapped in a pincer move because of how things worked out. This isn't a Jay decided this out of the blue. The majority of people talking about this were Toturi supporters like it's always been. Whenever something happens in game each side argues about how it supports them more. It's very clear that arguments here influence Jay, so it's encouragement for people to make them. Reality is being shaped by people making ad hoc arguments. Can I point out that Jay posted to that thread asking for Dragon player's thoughts and suggestions about what to do? I think Shige and I (the Toturi Dragons who posted) offered a neutral insight into the situation. However, in other threads and in that one you will see Hantei Dragon and other Hantei players expressing concern at the situation the Dragon found themselves in. I think it is unfair to say that the Toturi side somehow decided what the Dragon would choose next. Or would you prefer they do not have a choice and continue to attack the Lion castle? I think the choice is better but if you like the attack the Lion option so much - it is still there!!! Just vote B! When you say "...like it has always been" you really do sound like you are whinging and moaning. Please just enjoy the choice given to the Hantei Dragon - one that is an advantage to have quite honestly.
|
|
Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
|
Post by Tamori Manji on Oct 7, 2011 20:39:37 GMT -5
I didn't complain either. I simply asked how did the Dragon managed to put itself in that position, if it was indeed in a bad position as it seemed and, when Jay mentioned it was, I tried to offer viable solutions to the situation. Simple as that.
I can't really understand what all the fuss is about now. Of course, all the options the Dragon have are bad options (the less damaging being the one to retreat and regroup elsewhere) but the situation it was placed in (not up to me to accuse anyone here) was a bad one.
It's not my wish to enter another endless argument that throws blame around, so, instead, I decided to try and find options. Jay stated that all the armies are following their original actions through the more direct path available to them. I must say that I am happy to at least have an option to acknowledge that Kaneka's army is behind me before it strikes. It would be way worse if the Dragon plunged into battle and, suddenly, "ooops, there's a huge cavalry attacking our flanks, what do we do now?"
That said, I still think attacking the Castle of the Swift Sword is the worst possible option. It doesn't give a true advantage (c'mon, 4:2 in favor of the Dragon but it will need 3x the amount of votes than the Lion to win, this is a huge disadvantage and I call shenanigans on anyone who disagrees) and endangers the whole army. Retreating is an option, given the circumstances but, if it were up to me, I would throw everything I have, and the kitchen sink, just to have a shot at Kaneka and the opportunity to end the war with one swift stroke. The Lion tried, I can't see why we shouldn't try it too.
PS.: This post addresses pretty much the same thing as Yuusha's.
|
|