Taint and Infamy. The discussion.

[Kitsuki Yuushahime]

I think it does matter and tainted people certainly do have access to more over those who choose not to do tainted actions. A few more no taint missions would be nice. Still, agreed about the powerful items bit

[Shoju]

As I have posted before, and i will continue to post, The balance between taint and non taint is fine. The true power to actions is held in those who have no aversion to infamy.

Don't believe me? Check for yourself.

Top 10 Fate board.

1 out of 9 players on the top 10 fate board have any amount of measurable taint.
On the other hand, A large cross section (edit: 8 out of 10) of those players are riddled with high amounts of infamy. For this, I went with 1500 infamy is a high amount of infamy.

The difference is not nearly as big as people try to make it out to be. The difference is infamy.

[Shosuro Aroru]

...I agree with Shoju here. I don't see tainted one's running away with the game. I also continue to believe that if people want to limit themselves to uphold their own standards of play that's their own choice and Jay shouldn't go out of his way to "reward' their decisions. I myself am one of the least tainted Samurai, if not the least tainted. I don't see it as something I need to be rewarded for doing though.

[Soshi Kiso]

I agree with Shoju and Aroru, and had hoped this old arguement had died. In the top ten fate, down to 3 infamy (brawled with Mantis, and 0 taint.) Balance is fine in my eyes.

[Kitsuki Yuushahime]

You are welcome to think what you like but I strongly disagree. It's one of the reasons ojii retired his character. Whether it's infamy or taint - I think there should be more jobs that reward honourable or just plain not infamous/tainted samurai. You're entitled to think otherwise though

[Shoju]

For those of you who don't like to read a lot, Here is the TL;DR

---

Taint does not present a large enough sample size of extra jobs to characters in Emerald Empire that it throws the game out of whack, or provides a tainted player with some larger advantage than a player who is avoiding taint. Below, is the evidence, showing just how little taint actually does in providing you with extra jobs to do. I taken all my results from readily available information on the leaderboards of the game.

---

Yuusha.
Well, You can strongly disagree, but the proof is right there in plain old black and white for what I'm saying. I don't know how else to spell it out for you. if after reading through all of this proof that your point is overstated, and simply not true, I would kindly ask for you to show me some sort of proof to validate your statement, or please, kindly stop.

Let me pull out the data for you.

Top 10 Fate:

#1.) Hida Maiku | lvl237 | 301 fate | 34966 Glory | 1520 infamy | <276 taint
#2.) Mirumoto Asano | lvl245 | 299 fate | 25183 Glory | 2903 Infamy | <26 Taint
#3.) Daigotsu Karteru | lvl234 | 298 Fate | 22899 Glory | 3886 Infamy | 1510 taint
#4.) Isawa Gregory | lvl247 | 293 Fate | 21027 Glory | 2886 Infamy | <54 Taint
#5.) Bayushi Hiryu | lvl210 | 293 Fate | 21682 Glory | 2695 Infamy | <110 Taint
#6.) Soshi Kiso | lvl 255 | 293 fate | 27223 Glory | 3 Infamy | <110 Taint
#7.) Kakita Shagi | lvl239 | 291 fate | 22448 Glory | 4882 Infamy | <20 Taint
#8.) Mirumoto Pete | lvl230 | 290 fate | 24825 Glory | 2637 Infamy | 634 Taint
#9.) Mirumoto Shigekazu | lvl211 | 290 fate | 17304 Glory | 2565 Infamy | <29 taint
#10.) Mirumoto Takezo | lvl227 | 287 Fate | 27570 Glory | 33 Infamy | <29 taint

The proof like they say, is in the pudding. Only 2 players with a high enough taint score that I can even validate it with a concrete number and Karteru's simply because he is part of my dynasty, while on the other hand, 5 characters who have less than 54 taint. I would be really curious to find out how many of them actually have any taint.

On the other hand, I have not "farmed" a taint job past max mastery level. I do them for the rings. I do them for the drops, and I move on. I do very very very few jobs past max mastery.

Chuda "Tamihei" Shoju - Level 219 - 35006 Glory - 6105 Infamy - 2862 Taint : 274 fate

Well, maybe I'm doing it differently. Right?

Daigotsu Rafu - Level 216 - 11917 Glory - 16913 Infamy - 10536 taint : 277 fate

Huh.... no, someone who has done ALL of the taint jobs, and still not sniffing the leaderboard for fate? So, lets look at the fate versus taint debate on a clan by clan basis then shall we?

I'm not including the Minor Clans, because some minor clans just simply don't have the numbers to make a valid leaderboard sample. The great clans, and the Spider are included. If for some reason, you feel I'm somehow short changing my results by not including the Minor Clans, I will go back and re-validate them by including the minor clans.

Crab
-------Fate----------- 301 - 247 fate
1.) Hida Maiku
2.) Kuni Mago
3.) Hida Tatsuma
4.) hida Joji *271 Fate
5.) Hida takuya
6.) hida Akira
7.) Yasuki Kanosei
8.) Hiruma Dissi
9.) Kuni Psyko
10.) Kuni Veritas

Taint---------- 4112 - 276 Taint
1.) Kuni Yukara
2.) Hida Joji *3884 taint
3.) Kuni Kristo
4.) Hida Gojira
5.) Kuni Veritas
6.) Hiruma Kakougan
7.) Kuni Tristan
8.) Hida Champi
9.) Hida LucyFair
10.) Kuni Kujin


In the Crab Clan, we have a crossover rate of 10% between the two leaderboards of the Clan.


Crane
-------Fate-----------291 - 243 fate
1.) Kakita Shagi
2.) Asahina Mizuke
3.) Doji Kaosudori
4.) Kakita Kyoshi
5.) Daidoji tsumerai
6.) Asahina Timaru
7.) daidoji Meihi
8.) Kakita Chidori
9.) kakita Shokuma
10.) Kakita Alesha *243 Fate

-------Taint-----------336 Taint - 20 Taint
1.) Daidoji Tzu
2.) Kakita Alesha *284 Taint
3.) Kakita Kenji
4.) Kakita Shimekiri
5.) Kakita Meiyo
6.) Kakita Fulange
7.) Kakita Gizmo
8.) Daidoji Piotr
9.) Kakita chimaerok
10.) Kakita Mitsuhide

In the Crane Clan, we have a crossover rate of 10% between the two leaderboards of the Clan.

Dragon
-------Fate-----------299 - 275 fate
1.) Mirumoto Asano
2.) Mirumoto Pete
3.) mirumoto Shigekazu
4.) Mirumoto Takezo
5.) Mirumoto Cassio
6.) Mirumoto ryu-kani
7.) Tamori Yamasai
8.) Mirumoto Natsu
9.) Tamori Koichi
10.) Mirumoto Komhl
-------Taint----------- 634 - 29 Taint
1) Mirumoto Pete
2) Mirumoto Jinso
3) Mirumoto ikki
4) Mirumoto Satoru
5) Mirumoto DaniloBr
6) Togashi Joshua
7) Mirumoto Oshiso
8) Togashi Aidan
9) Tamori Diedrik
10) Mirumoto Lunhill

In the Dragon Clan, we have a crossover rate of 10% between the two leaderboards.

Lion Clan
-------Fate-----------284 - 257 Fate
1) Akodo Greel
2) Akodo Homura
3) Matsu Eystathios
4) Kitsu Natsuki
5) Akodo Shikamaru
6) Akodo Raikitsu
7) Matsu Gotreck
8) Matsu Kaito
9) Akodo Nobushige
10) Akodo Masao
-----------Taint----------1981 - 8 Taint
1) Kitsu Daisuke
2) Matsu Markus
3) Matsu David
4) Kitsu Michael
5) Akodo Emran
6) Akodo Kotaro
7) Akodo Raikitsu
8) Akodo Hontoshin
9) Akodo BAKERLAIN
10) Akodo Masaharu

In the Lion Clan, We have a Crossover rate of 10% Between the 2 leaderboards.

Mantis
---------Fate------------282 - 225 Fate
1) Tsuruchi Meisai
2) Tsuruchi Jesse
3) Yoritomo Murakumi
4) Tsuruchi Gaarth
5) Tsuruchi Bentoni
6) Yoritomo Jan
7) Kitsune Daichi
8) Yoritomo Take
9) Kitsune Miran
10) Tsuruchi Shimofuri
--------Taint-------------319 - 20 Taint
1) Yoritomo Zip
2) Yoritomo Katsu
3) Yoritomo Iuchiban
4) Tsuruchi Hideyoshi
5) Yoritomo Morgan
6) Tsuruchi Stikachu
7) Yoritomo Don
8) Yoritomo Jorge
9) Tsuruchi Giannis
10) Tsuruchi Bonita

In the Mantis Clan, we have a crossover rate of 0% Between the 2 leaderboards.


The Phoenix
---------Fate-------------293 - 251 Fate
1) Isawa Gregory
2) Agasha Miga
3) Isawa Okibi
4) Agasha Shodai
5) Isawa Daniru
6) Isawa Hitsuragi
7) Isawa Gareburodo
8) Isawa Iwanomi
9) Isawa Muko
10) Isawa Rei
---------Taint---------------1025 - 54 Taint
1) Isawa akei
2) Isawa YodaSensei
3) Agasha Lysa
4) Isawa Jacquie
5) Isawa Hotsuki
6) Agasha Risako
7) Isawa BebDiane
8) Isawa Ivorwen
9) Agasha Marina
10) Isawa Keiyi

In the Phoenix Clan, we have a Crossover rate of 0% between the 2 leaderboards.

Scorpion Clan
----------fate---------------293 - 257 Fate
1) Bayushi Hiryu
2) Soshi Kiso
3) Bayushi Sasori
4) Bayushi Ana
5) Soshi Tenbin
6) Shosuro Aroru
7) Soshi ArashiTejina
8) Shosuro Jay
9) Shosuro Kotaro
10) Soshi Yabu
-----------taint-------------2527 - 114 Fate
1) Shosuro Megubei
2) Bayushi Basura
3) Bayushi Melissa
4) Bayushi Kiyoshi
5) Shosuro Edwin
6) Bayushi Kotomi
7) Shosuro Evangelos
8) Bayushi Elwu
9) Shosuro Pierson
10) Shosuro Shi

In the Scorpion Clan, we have a Crossover rate of 0% between the 2 leaderboards.

Unicorn Clan
---------Fate-------------279 - 225 Fate
1) Ide Majamane
2) Ide Jiao
3) Horiuchi Meimei
4) Moto Hoburo
5) Iuchi Yunfei
6) Utaku Kasumi
7) Moto Katsumi
8) Iuchi Yurishiro
9) Utaku Rei
10) Ide Ian
-----------Taint-----------3746 - 20 Taint
1) Moto Yoee
2) Utaku Vicu
3) Shinjo Javier
4) Utaku Mark
5) Iuchi Ravnos
6) Iuchi Mike
7) Moto Kirisu
8) Ide Pete
9) Utaku Chiri
10) Shinjo Tsuchiro

In the Unicorn Clan, we have a Crossover rate of 0% between the 2 leaderboards.

Spider
------------Fate-----------298 - 223 Fate
1) Daigotsu Karteru
2) Daigotsu Rafu
3) Daigotsu Shigemiko
4) Chuda Shoju
5) Chuda Sprinkles
6) Daigotsu Ranmaru
7) Chuda Shunsen
8) Chuda Craig
9) Daigotsu Rune
10) Daigotsu Tokoyami
------------Taint-------------17447 - 1897 Taint
1) Daigotsu Seishi
2) Daigotsu Rafu
3) Daigotsu Thrakhath
4) Daigotsu Marco
5) Daigotsu Tokoyami
6) Chuda Iuchiban
7) Chuda Shoju
8) Chuda Sprinkles
9) Chuda Shunsen
10) Daigotsu Shigemiko

In the Spider, we have a Crossover Rate of 50% between the 2 leaderboards.

Now that's interesting.... In the "clan" where taint is beyond accepted, the top 10 fate and leaderboards only overlap by 50%?! Interesting. One of the things that should be pointed out, is that this sample also contains one of the highest fate ranges of any of the clans listed, and it includes the largest taint range of any of the clans listed.

And it still only overlaps by 50%?

So............ It doesn't give us some increase number of jobs to do. We aren't blowing people out of the water with fate, so we aren't able to complete a larger number of jobs.

What about Experience? I'm not going to go through and bore you with a breakdown clan by clan again, but lets just look at top 10 taint, and top 10 EXP overall. is there a correlation?

1) Daigotsu Seishi | level 192 | Taint 17,447
2) Daigotsu Rafu | level 216 | Taint 10,536
3) Daigotsu Thrakhath | Level 139 | Taint 9500
4) Daigotsu Marco | Level 110 | Taint 8,424
5) Daigotsu Tokoyami | level 151 | Taint 4436
6) Kuni Yukara| level 88 | Taint 4112
7) Moto Yoee | level 150 | Taint 3746
8) Chuda Iuchiban | Level 62 | Taint 3421
9) Hida Joji | Level 179 | Taint 3884
10) Kuni Kristo | Level 62 | Taint 3075

Highest level on the top 10 taint: 216
# 10 on the Experience Leaderboard: 234

We will have to call this inconclusive though, because it is obvious that some of these people have gone out of their way to farm taint, similar to Doji Yoshi farming Glory.

Let's Look at the top 10 EXP then. Surely one of those will show up with taint right?

1) Doji Yoshi
2) Soshi Kiso
3) Isawa Gregory
4) Mirumoto Asano
5) Kakita Shagi
6) Daidoji Tsumerai
7) Hida Maiku
8) Mirumoto Ryu-Kani
9) Daigotsu Karteru
10) Agasha Miga

Now that's interesting. Not a single one shows up on their own clan's leaderboard for taint. The only one with a "high" taint score is #9, Daigotsu Karteru.....

Does the Taint help you win competitions?
No. Not a single Spider has won a competition since their inception. We are close on the Spellcraft, but my sources tell me Koichi is capable of keeping Sprinkles at bay.

So..... Where is the bonus? Where is the unfair advantage? Where is it that we have this massive advantage in what we do? Where is the game unbalancing advantage that people keep talking about?

The truth is, that unless someone sat down, and made a direct and clear path, there isn't some discernable difference. Goju Karteru meticulously planned his rise up the leaderboards, and up until he performed the double swap to lion and back, had 0 taint. Even now, his use of the taint keeps him on par with the top tier taint free player who uses infamy.

I have said it, and I will continue to say it. The numbers do not support the theory that taint provides an advantage in this game.

I am more than willing to continue this discussion, but you are going to have to provide me with data, facts, evidence to support your claim. I have brought the numbers. I parsed a ton of information. Show me where I'm wrong.

[Zeure]

Mine might be tl;dr. Depends on what you consider tl. ;D

Another one I've heard a couple of times and I ain't even been here as long as Shoju is that we get some items that are better for our taint inducing jobs. Since we're just laying it out here on why taint isn't the path to power in the clicky game, I thought I'd add my 2zeni about items. Since in the clicky game I am all about mechanics and bonuses. I preoccupy my time with collecting the 'best' items to make awesome skill sets. So let's look at this shall we?

First off I don't know how many other people have looked at Mirumoto Shigekaze's work over in the answers to FAQ section, but the items lists he has put together for best items and for where to find items is pretty elite. Having quickly perused his best items list, I came across a total of 9 entries where he listed there had a taint requirement to get it. So, out of 20 skills + koku at 6 slots apiece there are only 9 items on that list that require taint to get. That means that out of 126 of the BEST items you can get to add skill bonuses, 9 of them require taint. And only 6 of those entries are better than anything else in their category and it's just three items.

Which are:
Depths of Dishonor
Kata = Req; Seduction 20. Cost; Seduction 15, Stealth 15

Plague Skulls
Hand = Req; Shadowlands 10. Gives; Shadowlands 12, Spellcraft 10, Honor -300, Taint 100

Terrible Standard of Fu Leng
Which I don't have exact stats for as I don't know where it is or how to get it, but the skill bonuses on the best items list are: Symbol = 12 battle and 12 Intimidation and 300 Taint for 12 shadowlands and taint 100.

So, looking at them, we can see that yes, they are the best in their category for one or more of those skills. Comparitively here are the runners up in each skill:

Battle
Top of symbol category is Terrible Standard at +12
Next is Toturi Supporter at +11

Intimidation
Terrible Standard is top of the symbol category at +12
Next is Mark of the Ninth Kami at 2, which does NOT require taint to get.
Third is Crab mon at +1.

Seduction
Depths of Dishonor is at top of Kata category at +15
Art of Seduction is next at +12

Shadowlands
Top for Hand(that is available) is Plague Skulls at +12.
Next is Bloodspeakers Journal at +10

Spellcraft
Top is Plague Skulls at +12
Next is Scroll Case at +10

Stealth
Top for kata that is available is Depths of Dishonor at +15
Next is Forest Killer Tech at +12

So, as we can see, in most cases it's a +2-3 bonus over whatever is next available. I will admit that the Terrible Standard of Fu Leng is an AWESOME item with no strong comparitive, but in all of the empire there is 1 item that I wouldn't be unhappy trading off for. And again, I don't have data on where to get it or how, so it MAY be unavailable to get anymore. Which would drop it to 4 out of 7 entries and there are strong comparitives for everything else, so...

And there are items you CAN'T get if you have taint. One is in the best items category as the top of it's class.

Usagi Yojimbo
Follower = Req; Athletics 5. Gives; Athletics 12, Iaijutsu 12

It tops in both of its skill categories for the follower slot and, has no strong comparitive. And I would like to point out, it is pretty unique in having the ABSOLUTE best trade off for skill gained vs. skill needed ratio. It gives you a total of 24 skill points for the investment of 5. That's almost a 5:1 ratio which is amazing for this game.

So there is one item that is friggen awesome with no strong comparitive for taint and one for no taint. Balanced? I think so.

Anyways, thanks for reading, hope I've helped to prove a point that should have already been over and done with; unless of course there is proof that Shoju and I are both unaware of...

[Shoju]

Depths of Dishonor
I don't believe that Depths of Dishonor is a Taint only available drop. Someone with more information than myself could double check that, but I'm almost positive I had it on my first character Bayushi Taizin, and he had 0 taint. I will have to double check and see, but I am almost positive that at one point in the past, or at present, this item is available without the need for taint.

Terrible Standard of Fu Leng
I gave up 10 black scrolls for my +1 battle. This item, is the culmination of MUCH WORK and IMO, ranks up there with the Kenku sensei in the amount of work a player puts forth to get it. This is the "ultimate" item for taint players, yet still holds just a paltry +1 bonus for a "competitive" stat, and a huge boost in intimidation.

[Enishi]

Depths of Dishonor has in fact now become Taint-only. It was the mastery drop for an infamy action in the early age of the game but is now the mastery drop for visiting the corrupted geisha house.

Way back when, there was another +15 stealth kata that didn't require taint, namely Path of Shadows, but you could only get it in the Yobanjin camp, so it's gone now. It's probably the one item I miss the most from my old character, since it's just not the same to be a shadow minion without it

[quarim]

Due to the large number of actions I can't take since I do have so much taint I doubt there is much difference in the Ring aspect as well.

[Daigotsu Thrakhath]

Taint is totally cool and everyone should clock all the taint actions to full mastery.

Edit: Click even.

[Tamori Manji]

I would say that, with a name this cool, Depths of Dishonor is worth every single point of taint (especially considering the bonus it gives and the mission with which it is involved). Hell, I would even go as far as saying that it's worth having taint just to have it. (un)Fortunately, Manji can't become tainted so, I'll never be able to use that one

[Soshi Kiso]

I have Depths of Dishonor, it was available quite some time ago from a mission that gave neither taint or infamy. For clarity on my 3 infamy, thats the remainder from two whole actions done to the first level of mastery, brawling with Mantis during the vote to declare their army, and getting a Yobajin marriage proposal. (I turned her down and the chief sent her to Shoju )

So while I can't remember the mission that gave it, I can at least verify no need for taint/infamy.

[Kitsuki Yuushahime]

Shoju thanks for missing my point. Let me repeat it - "Whether it's infamy or taint - I think there should be more jobs that reward honourable or just plain not infamous/tainted samurai"

Should I bold the infamy to make it clearer? Also, are you now arguing that there are more jobs that give taint than there are jobs that require no taint? If not, then again I will insist players who are willing to take on board taint have an advantage in terms of getting tokens and therefore fate and therefore an ability to dominate the game. Whether that is happening on a mass scale or not at this stage (and I accept your data clearly suggests it isn't) I can still be displeased at this possibility.

Furthermore it was an annoyance to taint AND infamy rather than just honourable characters. Thank you anyway for your long post but no I won't kindly stop.

[Kitsuki Yuushahime]

To Zeure - The fact there are even that many items that are from taint missions or what have you allows me my displeasure. Introduce an even number of items that require 0 taint and/or 0 infamy that are that powerful/useful and I will be pleased. Until then I will always be niggled at this. It's nice that there is an item that tainted people can't get that is somewhat good as you say but they could acquire this before becoming tainted - or possibly use an item that reduces taint? The item itself does not prevent tainted characters equipping it and I think that mostly invalidates your point regarding it. A few decent items that have missions which require no taint and/or infamy and the item itself doesn't allow you to have taint would be kind of nice in my mind. This is due to a) equalising the two options of playing someone who goes after taint/infamy or does not at all and b) adding more variety to the game. Both of which I think are worthwhile.

For the record I am not arguing it is game breaking or even a major issue regarding taint/infamy missions and items. It isn't. I don't lose sleep over this. I'd happily push for ronin, nezumi or other crazy things to be implemented before this. Nonetheless I still see it as a point that bothers me slightly. Does that clear things up for you both? Shigekazu and ojii both felt the same. Sure, we're a minority but asking us to just shut up about it is a little rude you know?

Edit: Anymore and I think we'll be going off topic too.

Edit 2: I am also less than inclined to spend a good couple of hours gathering data for this point when I do not presently have a reliable connection. IF I must because you absolutely demand I prove it then I will but I think it's a little unreasonable. This seems to really, really matter to you but to me the potential for exploitation and unfairness is what I disagree with. I have a visitor this weekend but perhaps next weekend I will be able to get the data necessary on this. Perhaps a collaboration with Shige may be in order, though with the disappearance of some jobs over time it does make it more difficult to completely give all the data. Since you are so set in your opinion regarding this, if I were to somehow prove there is an underlying disbalance would you be so kind as to remove your request for me to in effect stfu?