How everyone feel about...

[Asahina Yukihime]

...clan changing stuff and private chambers? Specifically in the following situation:

(I'm going to skip the reasons. As, if in a near future anyone else have the same wishes I do have right now, they will likely have other reasons.)

I would like to leave my main character (like freezed) for a while and play something else, in other clan. Any clan, whatever, I just may need new air. And then, after a while (after winter in my specific case) goes back to the Crane (unless the new clan/character is super awesome, who knows... in three months a lot can change).

Before any attempt: how does it sound to everyone?
Fair, unfair? Should be allowed or not? if yes, any specific procedure?

I may give my reasons if necessary (or a few of then), but I think it can be discussed in a more general way, so it fits for anyone willing to do the same in the future, if happen.

[Bayushi Haruka]

This is not the first time we've heard about people wishing to dip into other clans Yukihime. Unfortunately allowing people to just go in and out of private boards is something akin to meta-gaming, which the board strictly forbids.

The entire point of the private boards being that they are meant for those that are committed to and actively playing for that clan. While I cannot speak for every clan on the nature of what is posted, I can say that I would not want someone to simply browse the Scorpion clan private forum without true commitment from their character.

If you were considering placing your character 'on the shelf' to go back to and play at a later time as more of a reference or something of that nature, there is nothing that stops you from adopting that character's nature and posting from their perspective from a new account.
You would just no longer have access to your previous clan's forums if you decided to switch clans.

Alts however are in fact allowed, but they all must be ronin type accounts.

I've had these kinds of thoughts when it came to Haruka as well and this matter has been a topic of conversation between the staff as well. And while everyone can have good intentions, we have blanket rules to cover everyone. We don't want a character's loyalty to become the question of conversation.

If you do have your own feelings on the matter, we're not opposed to discussion, I'm simply stating that the rules are there for a reason.

[Tamori Manji]

Yuki, I can sympathize. Been wanting to do the same lately because of a character that I created, Isawa Kaen. Unfortunately for us, I can't see other Clans accepting this proposal. While I personally don't think its a problem and post in the Dragon board (or the Mantis, way back then) exactly as I do in the open ones, other people might not be so open minded about it and I can understand their desire for privacy.

I think its ultimately up to the player to judge what his character knows about events. After all, we usually know more about what's going on than our characters. But it would require a great deal of maturity and trust in each other for people to actually be allowed to see the inner workings of other Clans and still maintain proper manners during the RP, not abusing the knowledge they may have obtained. While I would no doubt vouch for your integrity, I believe that, here in these boards, if a rule is valid for one, it is valid for everyone and I can't vouch for everyone in the forums and everyone that may join us in the future.

It is a decision for the Clan you wish to join though, so, you might want to ask their representative directly. Maybe you can explain your situation properly to him/her and be allowed to join their ranks for some time.

[Zeure]

Another thought in relation to this topic. You could ask the mod or admin of the clan you are going to attempt to rp if there are any story clarifications that you should know. I can honestly say there isn't for the spider, cause we're all doing our own thing... But maybe other clans would have something for you to follow. Maybe a mod or admin could point you towards a story goal like this.

Just a thought and certainly not prohibited by the rules.

[Asahina Yukihime]

Thanks everyone for the comments and replies. I really appreciate the attention, and the time, I'm sure there are better stuff to read around here ^^ *bows* Thanks.

After the comments here, comments on Crane chambers I'm going to keep my main char and change nothing. I'm likely to just be nearly inactive for a while (unless some crazy event mess with my plans ) but well, consequences of the way I choose to build the character, I'm ok about it.

But, as thoguhts about Privates took me some moments, and Haruka-san says "we're not opposed to discussion", I would like to share.

I don't expect it to change anything... I'm just going to drop my opinion about it becouse I believe it can be more helpful than disturbing for further discussion... sometime in a distant future.

1st of all, this is supposed to be just a talk. I'm not trying to change any previous existent opinion.


2nd, let's make it clear those are MY thoughts, OOC thoughts (I once got 'adverted' something like "if you complain they may think something is wrong with the Crane (...)" while I was discussing a similar matter. So, no, there is nothing wrong with the Crane specificaly).

3rd, hope I don't get myself banned

here my huge post goes:


I really like to believe I'm playing mostly with reasonable players. That will do their best to keep the game fun, avoiding metagaming and "unfair play".
But it seems, to me, like the rules are made assuming that, without mod supervision, most of us would cheat.

Well, few Cranes may hate me now but... after being around for a while I'm starting to ask myself how good and how harmful are those privates.
At first I thought it was really cool, I implemented it on the forum I used to run. But after a while, honestly (I know, mostly everyone will disagree), I don't see any BIG HUGE secret on the privates I have access to.

I mean, the clicking game sometimes offers a few options to the clans, most of times the better option is nearly obvious. Other times the plans made by forum players are frustrated by the huge amount of players who doesn't use the forums.

I could go on listing the lack of "secrets" (or how most "secrets" makes no difference, for once they are posted in public other player can just assume they had the perfect item to handle the situation in hands), in my opinion. All I know is we have some paranoic players always concerned about "what clan X or Y are talking about me?" and I tend to believe no one is talking about anyone (on private chambers, I'll refraim from discussing another areas).
Also, if everyone play fair and avoid metagaming (and I like to assume we are mostly nice players here) having privates just seems senseless to me.

Besides, I believe some people just want to meet the other clans, talk, see where they fit better and where they are more confortable. Having this experience is more difficult when you're excluded from privates.

I'm a fan of honest talking (I'm not a fan of "staff discussion" where a few people decides the fate of everyone... I mean, we are a small group considering the online standards. Why can't everyone at least see what is goign on?). There were also "rumors" of some people having more "privileges" than others (not talking about mods)(1).

I know there was some kind of trouble with Crane player (well, for what I got he was a "all clan player" but weirdly enough even the Crane says it was "Crane player" *shoulders*), still, it was one issue among 400+ accounts, 40-80 active players. There was recently another one with multi-clan accounts, who got banned. But it takes us to, what? 2 or 3 incidents among a group at least 30 times bigger, within nearly a whole year. I would assume most of us are well behaved.

I agree players should play one clan at the time. I even think players, for the quality of the game, should have only one main character at time. But there should be a little bit more freedom to move about, change chars, change back.
Again, I won't be moving, but I believe it would be a great experience for those who want it. The darkest thing the privates have to hide is people bitching about other people (same thing mods area?) when it happens, it is probably less frequent than one can imagine. I just think we could be more transparent with fellow players.
We would still have PMs, Facebook, Skype and all that stuff.


Note that I'm not stating that privates are bad. I just feel like they may have a "dark side". I know well the power of "within this whole forum I'm part of this special group and we have our own secrets" and all this social-psychological stuff but... really?

(it occured me it would be a nice excercise if we could build a table listing positves and negatives aspects of Privates/Moving Clan/Multiple Accounts (or any other issue), and view what shows up. Like a tool for common participation, everyone can add words or short sentenses to a column. It could give some insight even if the final decision belongs to 'the staff')

(1) Edited and "removed" - I wont' just erase it because I have a reply already. Yet, just one more instance on how information have to go all the way around and be delayed, wouldn't be easier to have it posted to everyone ?-_-

[Tamori Manji]

I could make a long reply to your post Yuki, stating all my "whys", but I think it's enough to say that I completely agree with you. As far as I remember, there's nothing in the Dragon or Mantis boards that couldn't be made public. Sometimes, that would even save us the trouble of double posting things. I must say though, I don't think many people share our opinion.

[Togashi Homsar]

Everyone is invited to my private chambers.

If you know what I mean.

[Shoju]

Yuki,

Don't take offense to anything I'm about to say. I'm going to give you as many answers as I can.

Dec 5, 2011 13:53:20 GMT -5 Asahina Yukihime said:

I really like to believe I'm playing mostly with reasonable players. That will do their best to keep the game fun, avoiding metagaming and "unfair play".
But it seems, to me, like the rules are made assuming that, without mod supervision, most of us would cheat.

It has happened. Multiple times. People have used second accounts to go in and take what information they could, and pass it around. What were supposed to be talks for the good of clan positions, and the like, were taken, and broadcast to others, in several instances, nullifying plans that had been made.

Dec 5, 2011 13:53:20 GMT -5 Asahina Yukihime said:

Well, few Cranes may hate me now but... after being around for a while I'm starting to ask myself how good and how harmful are those privates.
At first I thought it was really cool, I implemented it on the forum I used to run. But after a while, honestly (I know, mostly everyone will disagree), I don't see any BIG HUGE secret on the privates I have access to.

Crane may not have private stuff. While the Spider don't have "private things, There are certainly things in there that I don't want other clans to read.

Dec 5, 2011 13:53:20 GMT -5 Asahina Yukihime said:

I could go on listing the lack of "secrets" (or how most "secrets" makes no difference, for once they are posted in public other player can just assume they had the perfect item to handle the situation in hands), in my opinion. All I know is we have some paranoic players always concerned about "what clan X or Y are talking about me?" and I tend to believe no one is talking about anyone (on private chambers, I'll refraim from discussing another areas).
Also, if everyone play fair and avoid metagaming (and I like to assume we are mostly nice players here) having privates just seems senseless to me.

The problem Yukihime, is that over time, we have found that there are always a few individuals who can't play fair, who can't avoid metagaming, who can't avoid spoiling other people's fun.

If you look back over the very short list of people who have been banned from here, the majority of those people are players who couldn't avoid metagaming, who couldn't avoid seeing other people's private boards. They HAD to do it.

I would LOVE if people would avoid metagaming, and not ruining people's fun, and not getting into discussions they shouldn't be a part of.

Dec 5, 2011 13:53:20 GMT -5 Asahina Yukihime said:

Besides, I believe some people just want to meet the other clans, talk, see where they fit better and where they are more confortable. Having this experience is more difficult when you're excluded from privates.

But this is only true, if the Private boards are a tangible part of the game, which you feel like they aren't needed. It's a double edged sword for sure.

nothing is stopping you from talking to the people in another clan, or cruising their open board, or PMing with them, or skyping / messaging with them to see if you fit better.

Dec 5, 2011 13:53:20 GMT -5 Asahina Yukihime said:

I'm a fan of honest talking (I'm not a fan of "staff discussion" where a few people decides the fate of everyone... I mean, we are a small group considering the online standards. Why can't everyone at least see what is goign on?). There were also "clues" of some people having more "privileges" than others (not talking about mods)

Because in a game like EE where there are subgroups inside the main groups who can all have differing opinions that are all relevant, and staying true to the "theme" of Legend of the Five Rings, Private Boards for Clan discussion are very thematic, very helpful, and a good thing.

As far as Staff discussion, People have the wrong idea about the mod boards for sure. Look at my post count. Less than 10% of that is in the mod section of these forums. We don't make decisions that effect the fate of all. We are staff members, who were put into place to make sure that this place runs smoothly, and I think, that things have been pretty nice around here lately. There are 6 people in the admin section that weren't voted there by their peers.

Setsuro - Created the board.
Jay Luo - Duh.
Alison - No longer posts, but also a no brainer.
Senshi - appointed by Setsuro
Tomatsu -appointed by Setsuro
Haruka-appointed by Setsuro

everyone else was appointed by a vote of their peers, in clan. Even myself, and Admin, started out as the Spider Clan's 2 star Moderator. Voted in, by my peers.

I know there was some kind of trouble with Crane player (well, for what I got he was a "all clan player" but weirdly enough even the Crane says it was "Crane player" *shoulders*), still, it was one issue among 400+ accounts, 40-80 active players. There was recently another one with multi-clan accounts, who got banned. But it takes us to, what? 2 or 3 incidents among a group at least 30 times bigger, within nearly a whole year. I would assume most of us are well behaved.

There have been more problems than just "a crane player". I'm not going to discuss the number of 'problems' that have happened, but I assure you that there have been more than 1.

With 502 accounts, we'll assume that there are ~33 accounts that are multi accounts, banned accounts, "not counting" accounts. Of the reaming ~479 accounts, 138 of them have been active in the last 120 hours. Yes. That's small.

Dec 5, 2011 13:53:20 GMT -5 Asahina Yukihime said:

I agree players should play one clan at the time. I even think players, for the quality of the game, should have only one main character at time. But there should be a little bit more freedom to move about, change chars, change back.

And its just simpler this way. It's less of a headache. It's less watching people. It's less making sure that so and so didn't swap clans, and then swap back, and spill the beans on something, and now this clan is pissed at that person, and so on and so forth.

No one is saying that you can't have a second account. I have 2 accounts. I have this account, and I have "the Ronin" account, who is in fact, Ronin. Even after he ends up clan aligned (a point I hope to cover in the story), the account itself will always be a ronin account, without access to another clan's boards.

The only time I had access to another clan's boards was when I was asked to moderate the Unicorn Clan Champion vote. I'm an admin. I can't even see other clan's private boards. Yes. We take it seriously.

Dec 5, 2011 13:53:20 GMT -5 Asahina Yukihime said:

Again, I won't be moving, but I believe it would be a great experience for those who want it. The darkest thing the privates have to hide is people bitching about other people (same thing mods area?) when it happens, it is probably less frequent than one can imagine. I just think we could be more transparent with fellow players.
We would still have PMs, Facebook, Skype and all that stuff.

Or Clan votes, or clan positions, or who the spider is infiltrating, or voting to assassinate, or go to war with, or who the scorpion is looking to blackmail.

Dec 5, 2011 13:53:20 GMT -5 Asahina Yukihime said:

Note that I'm not stating that privates are bad. I just feel like they may have a "dark side". I know well the power of "within this whole forum I'm part of this special group and we have our own secrets" and all this social-psychological stuff but... really?

Sure they do. That's part of the point to an extent IMO. It is your clan's place. It should seem secretive, because it is supposed to be secretive. Sometimes, the best part of a secret 'place' is when the secrets it hides are more benign than what people think. That makes for better RP in a setting like this IMO.

Dec 5, 2011 13:53:20 GMT -5 Asahina Yukihime said:

(it occured me it would be a nice excercise if we could build a table listing positves and negatives aspects of Privates/Moving Clan/Multiple Accounts (or any other issue), and view what shows up. Like a tool for common participation, everyone can add words or short sentenses to a column. It could give some insight even if the final decision belongs to 'the staff')

I can tell you right now, that the private boards are not going away, at least not anytime soon. I don't mind people discussing it the merits / seedyness of them, but I want people to understand that the private baords are considered an integral part of the forum structure, and their removal is not in the cards.

[Utaku Mai]

I'm fine with keeping private forums private. Not that there's anything "dark" going on in the Uni forum, but there's certainly been an airing of dirty laundry in there of late, and if other private forums are anything like that, then I pass. I'd rather stay ignorant of the largely OOC stuff that goes on so as not to spoil my IC interactions with people on the public spaces.

[Zeure]

If anyone wants to RP a spider, I'm am completely willing to share the secrets of the spider forum. Just PM me. You can ask me anything. ;D

[Asahina Yukihime]

Shoju: copy.
Actually just posting so you know I read you.

I wasn't exactly looking for "answers", I made no questions, just comments. May be language issue but I found kind weird you assure me there have been more than one problem, once I had previous written 2 -3 (may be more).
And other stuff like that.
Or listing mods when I wrote I wasn't talking about mods at all.

May be I was not clear, I'm not requesting the privates to go away.

Dec 5, 2011 15:02:40 GMT -5 Shoju said:

I can tell you right now, that the private boards are not going away, at least not anytime soon. I don't mind people discussing it the merits / seedyness of them, but I want people to understand that the private baords are considered an integral part of the forum structure, and their removal is not in the cards.

I see you took a lot of time to think about and discuss with everyone else, right? ^_-

Once again, I just posted it because Haruka wrote "not opposed to discussion". If it is not open for discussion I just wouldn't post.
But if comments are not welcome, well, once again => transparency.
I don't mind a "dictarotial" environment as long as people don't pretend to be democratic.

And about voting Hum... I don't want to start a case here. There was a voting for crane mod and... something happened before the voting ending Fair, huh? (once again, just an instance, just a case I know about. I don't mind, I'm just trying to point out things are not as perfect as they may look)

By the way, Mai's argument is perfectly convincing. I agree with it (lets say it changed my "aligment" a little, thanks for sharing ^_^)

To everyone else, thanks, copy that all too (even the funny posts they are my favs actually ).
I'll be reading if more is to come here, but I think I already told all I had in mind about it, so won't be posting more in this thread, I don't want make it stressful to anyone (and sometimes I don't sound as I wanted, unfortunately. Sorry about it).

[Kakita Mitsouko]

OH girl you are making it all sound so wrong!

Please don’t make people think there is something dirty happening where it isn’t. Yukihime, I am getting really concerned with your attitude towards a no, it’s against the rules. Or no , I got your point, but I disagree. Or I agree to a certain point, but we aren't changing anything because the way it is makes it good for the majority.

About mod vote in Crane clan: you indicated me, some of them indicated me, I indicated you. I was the only to do it by the way. Then we had a poll. You've got my vote. Everyone else voted on me. And yes, before the poll was finished, Setsuro asked me to accept the position. And I was very clear with everyone about it, even pasting my conversation with him there. It didn’t change the result because the margin of the votes (1x6-check it again if needed) was unreachable and all the active players at that given time had the opportunity to vote. So if Shoju says I was chosen by the clan, he is not telling any lie. Remember, it' senseless to say ok I agree, when in fact you didn't mean it. And I remember you said you were ok with Setsuro's option even before the votes were closed.

I bother myself to give the players of this forum a public explanation about the subjects you had brought up "with no intention of make a case", solely because I don’t wish either my clan image, or mine, being treated like you are doing, because like everyone here, you aren't permitted to do some things in the forums.

And I am glad you think it's turning stressful. It really is.

[Asahina Yukihime]

And I'm still OK. I'm just stressing ONE instance of something that was NOT decided by voting. Shoju wrote mods comes from voting but can you understand the voting never ended so that was not exactly decided by the voting?

My comment about it was just and ONLY it. And instance on how not every mod come from voting like he wrote. And again, I don't mind ( and you would win anyway).

My only point is people say one thing is happening when in fact what is happening is something else <=just it, nothing else and nothing personal. I'm not talking about the voting itself here, that voting is ONLY an instance for other issue.

Mitsouko, we had several miss communication, we don't agree in a lot of stuff (yet, this thread started after your suggestion, in other words, I'm still listening).
I know (and understand, and it's a natural response) our several misunderstoods will sure lead you to find the "worst" you can out of my words. I have been avoiding much talking into Crane threads thanks to it all.
But I don't believe problems get fixed by themselves if we don't do anything to help it. Fell free to talk to me in Portuguese if you like.

What am I making sound wrong? I gave my opinion, and facts. Or did anything that I told never happened?

Can you please read that I won't be playing anything else and that I already understood your (all) rules, and that I'm (still, and since ever) playing by the rules? if I asked "how everyone feel" about it prior to doing anything is because I'm willing to hear and to respect the general decision. Otherwise I would just go wild, create another account (with an IP mask probably), and wait if/when someone find out. What I didn't.

By the way, "Your clan", exactly you need to remark it even after I say it is my personal , not related to clan and OOC stuff

[Tamori Manji]

Mitsouko, I think that's beside the point. I understand what Yuki is trying to say here and I share her feelings regarding all the secrecy that seems to permeate the forums.

Her point isn't that there was something wrong with you being elected as the Crane Mod, because everyone there did vote for you. The point is that you were made a Mod before the voting period concluded simply because Setsuro appointed you. There was absolutely no need for that. I understand people in power simply wanting to appoint those whom they trust, like or think fit for a position but we can't call nepotism democracy. And I also understand that there are other elected representatives here, but, since the same can't be said about everyone, yeah, not democracy. I must say now that I'm not judging anyone/anything, but I'm not blind and I don't have any illusions about our situation.

In this case, as Yuki stated, I think her arguments were about the general situation in the forums and not geared towards you. So, no need to turn things personal.

[Asahina Yukihime]

Thanks Manji, you got it right. That's it. And you're more able courtier than I'm.
(people fell free to read Manji instead of myself to avoid stress >.o )