Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Mar 13, 2012 9:23:24 GMT -5
The lesson learned here is, there's no such thing as a fast competition. I completely agree but that is a lesson I've learned a long time ago (really, White Orchid, just ask Shoju). And besides, I do think it makes sense for the Imperial Wedding to take a month to conclude its preparations (purification rituals, blessings, choosing the right shugenja to preside over it yadda, yadda... that takes time).
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Post by Shoju on Mar 13, 2012 9:30:51 GMT -5
It is just frustrating to watch your effort slide away. I completely understand Aroru's frustrations, even if my situation wasn't completely the same.
He knew that the game said in the text for jobs that it would be a short time, so he waited, and built, and then struck, at what he thought was a short time. Now, the contest has gone on far longer than he thought, and he has lost the lead.
The same thing happened to me with White Orchid. I knew I wasn't going to catch up to Koichi, Sprinkles, and Kiso, so I built myself a 200 point lead over the next position, and went on focusing on other things, and fleshing out my Character Points in some areas so I wasn't swapping gear so often.
Then, because the contest went FAR LONGER than it should have, I ended up losing my spot, because it didn't end in the timely fashion that was expected.
I don't think anyone would argue that from an RP sense, a month seems right. BUT[/i] what is in frustrating here, is that this was stated to be a short term contest, where you could only click ONCE.
Aroru waited as long as he thought was prudent before moving, especially considering how quickly the Assassination in Scorpion Lands moved.
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Mar 13, 2012 9:35:23 GMT -5
Funny thing about the White Orchid is that it began before I started playing EE, but I digress...
I understand Aroru and I completely agree that the (Note: The festival is running only for a couple days) part in the Iris Festival text may be misleading. But, personally, I would prefer to miss the opportunity of clicking in a competition, if that ensured me the outcome I wished, than click on it too early to get a special item or simply place first. "One click" competitions are tricky, example, I know a couple of Kitsuki who could've surpassed my score (because of saved up points) but that made the mistake of clicking on the competition once before being completely ready (because they didn't pay attention to the "one click only" part). It happens.
And, for the record, the attempt on Asako-chan's life went on for a exactly a month, if I'm not mistaken, and this one on Doji Domotai's life started on 02/14.
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Shosuro Aroru
Scorpion Clan
Scorpion Clan Ninja * Duelist
Posts: 625
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Post by Shosuro Aroru on Mar 13, 2012 10:14:13 GMT -5
...This isn't a personal matter though, it's a gm error matter. Jay does lots of wonderful things, but he is human. Misleading your characters happens to gm's, there's just no good fix to it this time. Why do you want the Doji bride alive anyway?
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Post by Hida Joji on Mar 13, 2012 10:25:40 GMT -5
...This isn't a personal matter though, it's a gm error matter. Jay does lots of wonderful things, but he is human. Misleading your characters happens to gm's, there's just no good fix to it this time. Why do you want the Doji bride alive anyway? Agree, One click only competitions must have a reasonably clear ending. Not saying a defined day but at least a bare minimum, like at least 3 updates, but I'd suggest a fixed day and hour. Especially when competetions are for the "I have 1 skill only." crowd.
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Mar 13, 2012 10:29:03 GMT -5
Why do you want the Doji bride alive anyway? I'll answer it with the reasons I've posted in the Dragon boards. They are exactly as follows: 1) As Takezo have mentioned, although we have all lobbied for Kitsuki Iweko to be nominated, Doji Domotai won the contest fair and square and is an "innocent" in this situation. As such, she should be protected. Besides, its tradition for the Emperor to take a Doji princess as a bride, so, we cannot blame him for that; 2) I want to prove to the Crane that, however questionable their peace treaty with the Lion may be (to the point of jeopardizing our best chance to have a shot at Kaneka), we do not forget our allies and that we will always uphold our mission of observing the Empire and acting during critical times; 3) By doing this I wish to elevate the Kitsuki to their rightful position as the top investigators within the Empire and I hope that other Kitsuki players will follow up on my footsteps and be able to defend their own family name in the future. I know of a couple that may do it but, given the circumstances, were unprepared for this particular contest. It is for them that I will do this, may our brothers and sisters be prepared when their next opportunity comes. Also, I think its silly to blame Jay for it. The text on the Iris Festival may have been misleading, yes, but no one does an assassination of this caliber in a day or two and no one prepares for an imperial marriage in such short notice. Both require perfect planning and execution. I understand your frustration though and will not press this further (especially because as long as the competition is open, the result may change and she may still die. I really do not like taking things for granted).
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quarim
Dragon Clan
Merchant*Qolat*Gaijin
Posts: 334
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Post by quarim on Mar 13, 2012 10:53:51 GMT -5
I don't like the idea of a single day competition for this reason. but at the very least we should have had at least a idea of how long it would last from jay officially. i.e. a few days, a month, six months. you get the idea. it sucks either way.
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Post by Shoju on Mar 13, 2012 10:53:52 GMT -5
It's not a referendum on Jay, or a public outcry. It is voicing displeasure over what I think was viewed by most as a miscommunication.
I think that its fair to be unhappy with this situation, and as long as the discussion doesn't get out of hand, I'm not going to tell people that they can't express their unhappiness, or say something that assigns blame.
I think Aroru has every right to be unhappy. He went off the knowledge that he was able to gain from the game. The iris festival was labeled as a "few days". I don't think that 28 days falls under "a few days". I think that it was fair for Aroru to assume that a few days meant something more literal, and that the competition would be concluded within that "few days" as well, considering that the Bride - elect was at the "festival".
He waited a prudent amount of time given the information that he had, and acted accordingly. With everything that he was told, Yes. He is right in saying that he feels his now early seeming click can be "blamed" on that information.
I think that even Aroru would say I would be the first one to tell him to knock it off if it were even questionably out of line for him to say so. He isn't bashing Jay. He praises Jay in the very post, but then points out that he feels that this was misleading and a mistake. Regardless of how much I agree or disagree with that statement, I don't think that it is "silly" for him to believe / feel that way.
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Asahina Yukihime
Crane Clan
Crane Clan Ikazuchi
* Air * Water * Shugenja * Artisan * Asahina Family Daimyo *
Posts: 750
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Post by Asahina Yukihime on Mar 13, 2012 11:09:47 GMT -5
Manji-san What is stated it that Iris Festival would be on for a couple days (I agree more than a couple days had gone by now... but anyway). We just had it to happen on Winter Court, FireWorks on, couple days, FireWorks out and the rest of the court was still there. We had no precise hint to assume these "couple days" where extended to the other actions in Benten Seido (imo). So, everyone took their chances on choosing when to click (I have a few alts to click yet, I may log in tonight (or anytime) and find out the job is gone). Well, I mentioned before, I understand the fun of 'competitions' but i'm not sure if the overall 'unhappiness' worth it. Seems like we always have more losers and winners out of it >.oBy the way, Manji-san, again, your honored reasons for helping the bride were great to read. I kinda understand that. I only devoted so much to White Orchid because there was no Crane among the TOP 10 and I think they should be represented (that's how I understand, some people may disagree on the value of our spells), if there were anyone else there I wouldn't had minded so much probably. In this case I like to keep with the cannon and having a Scorpion being good at Stealth (better than a Spider at least) and a Kitsuki being good at investigation just feels right in a way
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Mar 13, 2012 11:12:12 GMT -5
While I don't disagree Shoju, I never found assigning blame at the game table to be an efficient way of solving problems or fixing misunderstandings, especially when the GM is involved, which is why I've said its a "silly" thing to do. But, as I've also said, I agree with him, especially in what concerns (Note: The festival is running only for a couple days) thing on the Iris Festival, and I understand the frustration of those who want to see Doji Domotai 7 feet under. Also, when I've said that "I won't press matters further" I meant that as a fellow player, not as a Mod, because although I sympathize with his situation there's nothing I can do for him and I want him to lose the competition (something I went out of my way to do and did fairly). I must also say that I agree with quarim about the trickiness of one click competitions but I don't know how strictly can Jay adhere to set dates, that's something only he can explain. EDIT: Thanks Yuki
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Post by Hida Joji on Mar 13, 2012 11:52:14 GMT -5
It's not about laying blame, saving face and having a villan... It's about trying to make sure a situation, that I think was not intended to have this effect, to happen again... Just that.
1) Saying it's an Imperial wedding and it takes months is not a valid argument, IMO, simply because an Imperial wedding doesn't include a surprise ceremony at a, from the uninformed point-of-view, random day. Everyone from Eta to Kuge know the when and how of the wedding. It's a big deal.
2) Have there been any other 1 click only contests? How did it work out?
3) I was not advocationg an event at a specific hour and day I was advocating a specific hour and day for the contest to close. I'm sure Jay can see when a click is done and can filter the result at any point in time.
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Mar 13, 2012 12:10:23 GMT -5
Joji, what I do not understand is how the (Note: The festival is running only for a couple days.) present on the Iris Festival text got somehow extended to the Assassinate the Imperial Bride and Guard the Imperial Bride competitions. There is nothing on the text of those actions that indicate, in any way, that they would last for only a couple of days so, why would people expect them to end quickly when the note is present only in the Iris Festival text? I do not see this as a problem caused by the GM since the text is very clear in all the actions.
That said, you can use the same logic you used on your first point for almost all competitions that happened at one point or another. White Orchid has a very specific time frame (it nonetheless lasted for more than 6 months), same for the Winter Court competitions (who remained open for anyone who stayed in the Court after the event closed), so, I do not see why the surprise (especially when the other assassination mission lasted a whole month, which is more than this one has lasted up until now).
As for your second question, I do not know, this is the first "one click only" competition that I see (or remember) but others may have seen them before. And only Jay can answer your third one, since he's the only one who knows that for sure.
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Post by Hida Joji on Mar 13, 2012 12:23:44 GMT -5
...Joji, what I do not understand is how the (Note: The festival is running only for a couple days.) present on the Iris Festival text got somehow extended to the Assassinate the Imperial Bride and Guard the Imperial Bride competitions.... Me neither, the only thing that, for me, changes the contest is the "one click only" limit. As long as ppl can click once a day it's a race between 2+ ppl... if it's a one click contest it turns into an auction, of sorts, without sniping rules. That didn't strike me to be the intention behind the new contest. Once again, it's not about blaming the GM... this was a 1st time so I guess it was a learning experience for all. Just leaving my feedback, reasons and suggestions...
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Post by Shoju on Mar 13, 2012 12:29:04 GMT -5
I think what happened is the following:
(Note: The festival is running only for a couple days.)
+
Thus, meaning that if the Imperial bride has traveled to the Iris Festival at Benten Seido to purify herself, and there is a plan to assassinate her at the Iris Festival, That action, would as well only last for a few days.
Now, you could say that Domotai was traveling to Benten Seido, and not the iris festival, and that the two are just coincidentally at the same place at the same time, but that is pure conjecture, as neither point is specifically made.
EDIT: This was not the first 1 click only contest. The previous Assassination Attempt of the Phoenix Ambassador in Kyuden Bayushi was also a one click contest.
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Mar 13, 2012 12:51:07 GMT -5
Sure, I agree with you Joji. I do think that, despite the frustrations involved, people should express both their opinions about this form of contest and explain from where some misunderstandings sprang (thank you for the explanation Shoju), so that, as you've said, such things may be prevented in the future.
Personally, I think it would be excellent if Jay could give us a forewarning not only about the competitions but about some of the programmed updates, like he did when asked about CotSS (which, according to him, should end sometime during this month). I do not even ask for precise dates, like in day X at Y time, but something like "the next update will be X, in 2-3 weeks, then Y, in 5-7 weeks, then Z, in 7-8 weeks". It would be really amazing if something like that was possible and it would allow everyone to program themselves better for conflicts, contests and whatever may come but that depends entirely on Jay.
About the "one click contests" I think their nature could be better stressed out. More than one person I know lost his click because he did not pay attention to the italicized text in the mission and thought it was a normal contest. As such, when one of them happens, I think its nature should be explained in the update text (and it would be even better if it came with an estimate time frame). Or maybe we can make an entry about it in the FAQ section, something like "types of contests" with examples.
Just saw Shoju's post and, although I would put my money on his second interpretation, he is correct, that would be a conjecture and things could go both ways. Also, since he said the assassination attempt against Asako-chan was also a "one click contest", I would presume that this is the model Jay uses for assassination competitions (and if that one lasted one month, I assume this one will end this week or the next).
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