Mantis and Phoenix

[Isawa Kinen]

First off, sorry if this isn't really the best place to put this, but rather than a question about the game in general, this is a rather specific question about the these two clans.

I'm honestly trying to figure out why the Mantis and the Phoenix do not really get along. It seems like a bit of a contradiction because when I started playing, I was told that the Phoenix generally treated the minor clans better than most of the major clans. And then the Mantis became a major clan. Shouldn't that mean the Phoenix get along with the Mantis, because the Mantis became a great clan by uniting several minor clans?

Apparently not. Instead, it seems that the Mantis completely despise the Phoenix, and I have not yet been given a good answer why. This issue is particularly important to me because in my RPG, two of players had their characters die, and now they are both going to be playing Moshi shugenja. I am playing a Phoenix shugenja, so I'm trying to figure out how I'm supposed to treat them and what the root of the problem between these clans really is.

[tadakasan]

Well three things about this.

1) The Phoenix treat the minor clans with more ~compassion~ than many other clans do, but that does not mean they treat them better per say. Instead it's almost like pity; the Phoenix already have an image of being holier-than-thou to all the other clans for their unenlightened ways, and that's only magnified with the minor clans. This does nothing to improve peace with the Mantis. Afterall, the Phoenix tend to treat almost every clan with more compassion and peace, but that's just who they are. There are other aspects to them.

2) There has been bad blood between the Phoenix and Mantis since the War of Fire and Thunder. In that war the Phoenix accused the Mantis of using a Black Scroll. While a black scroll was used, it had not been used by a Mantis, instead being a trick by the Bloodspeaker Asako Kinuye. The Phoenix petitioned that the Mantis great clan status should be revoked and the Mantis defended their honor. The aftermath of the war only made things worse; after defeating the Dark Wave (a corrupt sect of the Mantis lead by the tainted Yoritomo Kitao) the two sides attempted to make some sort of peace, following the death of Champion Yoritomo Kumiko, elemental master Isawa Sachi, Orochi sensei Yoritomo Kaigen, and Kitao. Unfortunately the champions of the two clans, Shiba Mirabu and Yoritomo Naizen, both wished to continue the war and could not come to terms. Finally, at the behest of Master of Air Isawa Nakamuro, the Phoenix agreed to withdraw their claims that the Mantis used a black scroll and their request to revoke the great clan status of the Mantis. Naizen refused the offer, took over the island that had been created off the Phoenix Coast (which Broken Wave City is on) and claimed all the Phoenix trade routes. Thus while the war ended, it did so on terms neither Clan had truly agreed to, and both clans still feeling wronged in the end.

3) As a side factor, the Phoenix and Mantis are largely opposites, much like the Crane and Crab claim such things. The Phoenix are traditional, peaceful, pious, quiet, and reserved. The Mantis believe the mortal man makes his own way and have little heed for tradition or piousness for the most part. They are also ambitious and boisterous, living life to it's fullest and expanding their power and respect as much as they can, much like their founder Yoritomo.

[Isawa Kinen]

Thank you! This was exactly what I needed, especially the second part.

Although we're in a different part of the timeline, so I'm not sure how much of that may have happened yet. For us, Toturi the First was either just rescued, or twenty years after that, I'm not sure which yet, we're doing a time-skip over the winter.

[tadakasan]

Even if 2 has not happened, one and three are both very valid problems; The Mantis will always leave the Phoenix uneasy with their carousing, drinking, ambition, and lack or respect for tradition. And on the other part, the Phoenix will always leave the Mantis uneasy with their high and mightyness of being better than the Mantis for being more wise, more enlightened, and etc etc.

[Moshi Shizumaru]

It bears saying, though, that the Moshi are FAR more traditional, calm and turned towards the kami than the rest of the Mantis. So, if they're playong their family right, you very well might be okay by their standards.

That's part of what makes the Mantis so great: Even more so than other Clans and their inner divisions, the Mantis are an aggregate of former minor Clans. That's also why the Yoritomo, which are pretty much the figurehead of the Clan, are so proud of their adaptability; it's much needed when pulling together such a wide array of opinions.

[tadakasan]

Yeah, the Moshi get a wrap for being part of the whole "rebel image" thing from their less traditional brethern. Despite all that they stick with the rest of the clan. It is a very inspiring thing to see so many different aggragate parts from far corners of the Empire, both tradition wise and physically, working together.

[Yoritomo Saigo]

It also should be mentioned that for purposes of this game that there is no, none that I see, reason why the Phoenix and Mantis couldn't let bygones be...

Figured an olive branch might be workable, if/when this is needed. Just don't go around calling us a Minor Clan, and things will be peachy keen!

[shinguma]

Greeting great samurai...
Old history states; the founder of the mantis clan KAIMETSU-UO son of OSANO-WO. KAIMETSU-UO received a letter from his brother now champion of the crab. Their father was poisoned by a traitor, and that man was being sheltered in the phoenix lands. Letter states the crab champion could avenge our father, I must stay and defend the empire against the shadowlands...
With a cry of vengeance, KAIMETSU-UO led his men to battle against the phoenix.

Long story short KAIMETSU-UO with a small contingent of men out numbered, attacked kyuden isawa, they over came the phoenix, and brought back the head of the traitor to the crab champion. Phoenix after the loss offered recompense of silver and jewels.

[tadakasan]

*nods* Completely forgot the old story of Kaimetsu-Uo standing outside the gates of Kyuden Isawa and crying out to his father Osano-Wo, the heavens sending a bolt of lightning that split apart the gates so Kaimetsu-Uo and his followers could get in.

I normally don't think of that with the Phoenix and Mantis... but I know the same can't be said true for the other way around all the time.

[Komori Yukio]

There was also the incident before the Mantis rose to Great Clan status (or was it shortly after?) in which Yoritomo claimed that the Phoenix could not protect their own holdings, and tried to use this as justification to take a large chunk of the Phoenix lands, which resulted in a brief but brutal war between the two clans at the time. I'd trace the true bad blood between the two to that incident.

[Hida Baramo]

Moto Kazehito: Thanks probably the biggest reason in my opinion.

[Tsuruchi Ishla]

Seems I need to be knocking books drinking in the history, before I dive right in ..I take RP seriously. As the Lion is to samurai ,Tsuruchi blood line is to Archers.. meaning most others are pale in comparison.

I am more reserved, so that a strike from me is swift ,just & true . Each arrow is sacred and must count or else all is wasted effort . We are the 'Do or Do not', never giving into 'trying' of anything ..

Water, Void (Fluid -Spirit)seem strongest followed by Air & Fire (A force of Nature not to be toyed with) making us weaker with Earth (we aren't as stubborn or rooted as others, or could be viewed as weak willed, or even, lack of courage). Will return after I do more research ,Thank you for the History lesson thus far.

Returned: Being of Clan Wasp this explains a lot for me ,many of us view it being with two Clans mostly wearing both colors & excels at catching criminals, strongly connected to the Emerald Emirate.

I drink tea ,lemon aid , juice & water .. Honor is stronger to me then Glory , as such with any following the Bushido Code I do not fear, though words can lie , my actions are the truth . I respect those in higher station and those that went before me. Regardless of Clan or Bloodline. My Path is Pain for I seek Knowledge , when in doubt Meditate, a strong spirit allows one to build a strong body & mind .

Peace with you and all you do ,for you only get what you deserve. Life feeds on life ,this is the immutable Law.

[Tsuruchi Kourin]

Actually, Maiku-san, Air is typically the strongest of a Tsuruchi's elements, followed by Water and Void. Air relates to the reflexes that are natural to archery, as well as the awareness to select the best targets. Water relates to the strength and perception required for archery.

Granted, that follows the 3E and 3ER version of Lo5R. I've not had a crack at 4E yet to see how it differs.

If you're truly interested in our history, I do have a PDF copy of Secrets of the Mantis I might be convinced to pass your way. Of course, the history contained therein is, I think, slightly advanced beyond our current point. It also lacks the influences that we've had on it already.

[tadakasan]

In 4th Edition Air is still by far the most important ring for Tsuruchi; effects how ofen you hit with a shot and how hard you are to hit in return. Otherwise though, for a secondary ring, there could be arguements for a few;

Water has movement and spotting ambushes; Earth has how much you can take when you eventually get hit (and trust me, they won't always miss); And Void has your ability to boost your shots so you can aim to knock someone's weapon out of their hands or maim their leg, not to mention the simple ability to focus (the +1k1 bonus) on whatever task you really need to get done or push through pain (the ability to reduce damage taken by 10).

I'd personally say Air, Void, Water, Earth, then Fire myself (as long as your strength is equal to your bow's rating first of course). But that's how ~I~ would play it; Air is obvious but I'd want Void next because it can serve so many purposes for an archer.

As far as a fourth edition Tsurushi lesson goes~

[Tsuruchi Ishla]

I thank you for your insights ..
quoted from Tadaka-san "I'd personally say Air, Void, Water, Earth, then Fire."


what I have found :
Tsuruchi was the son of Bayushi Uchinore, the cousin to Scorpion Clan Champion Bayushi Shoju, and Akodo Tameko, the daughter of Akodo Ranabe. Their son was named Tsuruchi by his mother, meaning "Little Wasp". Their union was not welcomed by either clans, and both clans began plotting to take the castle they resided in. The courts whispered about the "Shame of the Akodo".

Fall of Kyuden Ashinagabachi:
Meanwhile, Tsuruchi grew up showing amazing skill with kyujutsu.
In 1107, before Tsuruchi had reached his gempukku, his parents were assassinated. At the same time a Lion army led by his uncle, Tameko's brother, moved towards the castle. It became clear that they intended to take Kyuden Ashinagabachi, and some of the troop stationed there were not loyal to Tsuruchi. Tsuruchi and those loyal killed the disloyal ones, but took heavy damage. By the time his uncle's army arrived he was given a choice between death and surrendering. As Tsuruchi was about to surrender he noticed his uncle reading a message. It was from his uncle's superior, Matsu Kajitoko, ordering the slaughter of Tsuruchi and all those within the castle. Tsuruchi barely escaped, and only seventy men remained with him.

Embracing the Kyujutsu:
After such events the faith in the Way of the Samurai and his honor code was totally lost. Tsuruchi broke his blade and swore he would not wield another again. From this day Tsuruchi embraced the Kyujutsu as the way to fight.
"I will never again carry the samurai's weapon. For I am samurai no longer." - Tsuruchi