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Post by Jay Luo on Mar 14, 2011 10:30:12 GMT -5
The Mantis have begun plans for trade with the Burning Sands and are considering several possible routes. The Yoritomo have invited supporters of the Burning Sands trade route to Kyuden Gotei to debate the relative merits of the possible alternatives.
(Note 1: this will be on page 2 of the action list.)
(Note 2: Sorry to use the Sworn Enemy mechanic yet again, but I think it makes sense in this context.)
(Note 3: These jobs have been changed to Require Mantis Ally, rather than May Not Have Sworn Enemy: Mantis.)
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Post by Bayushi Sasori on Mar 14, 2011 10:36:38 GMT -5
Ok, but this is getting a bit beyond a joke. Surely some of these allies I have can help me in court too! This is the 3rd update where I can only stand by and watch. I mean, what kind of Scorpion doesn't make enemies? It's how you handle them that counts.
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Post by Jay Luo on Mar 14, 2011 10:40:28 GMT -5
Ok, but this is getting a bit beyond a joke. Surely some of these allies I have can help me in court too! This is the 3rd update where I can only stand by and watch. Hmmm, what would you like your character to be doing at this negotiation, if you've previously established that you were opposed to the trade route entirely?
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Kakita Shinji
Crane Clan
Laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone
Posts: 485
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Post by Kakita Shinji on Mar 14, 2011 10:55:08 GMT -5
Oh great... Do I have eveny in Mantis clan, or whole clan is my enemy? As matter of fact, just because they don't like me, I don't believe that would stop me from talking about them, unless they killed me, poisoned me, persuaded my daimyo to order me to commit seppuku... Hmmm, what would you like your character to be doing at this negotiation, if you've previously established that you were opposed to the trade route entirely? Well courter won't give up just because he lost a battle. It's been established that there will be trade route, but there are still things to be discussed, there's still plenty of place for courtiers to plot and manuver. I'll give you an example: I may not like idea of Shogun's march (I actually do like it, but did other action, since there was seemingly no punishment for that, only extra xp, drops and tokens), but once it was decided, I fed them, helped them cross the river, scouted ahead and did much stuff that supports my superiors. See analogy?
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Tamori Koichi
Dragon Clan
Dragon Clan * Shugenja * Earth * Void * Yamabushi * Duelist
Posts: 228
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Post by Tamori Koichi on Mar 14, 2011 11:08:17 GMT -5
Double the fate cost or spend two Mantis favors perhaps so those that have enemies can do it as well?
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Post by Kitsuki Ketsumei on Mar 14, 2011 11:30:08 GMT -5
Hmmm, what would you like your character to be doing at this negotiation, if you've previously established that you were opposed to the trade route entirely? Considering how close the "vote" was during Winter Court, I bet nearly half the players cannot participate in these new missions. I know I can't. Some alternative method should be found in my opinion, and I think it should be a higher skill requirement. For anyone that argued against this proposal would now have to use extra skill and tact to get their points across.
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Kakita Shinji
Crane Clan
Laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone
Posts: 485
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Post by Kakita Shinji on Mar 14, 2011 11:38:27 GMT -5
Agasha Miga-san proposed very good solution in "A Hint of Scandal" thread.
Just as there are requirements Kenjutsu 25 or Iaijutsu 25 in some actions, in this case it could be:
Courtier 25, may not have Mantis Sworn Enemy or Courtier 50
Now this could be extended to other actions. As far as I know there's no way to get Dragon ally right now. So Find the Monastery could be: Meditation 10, Dragon ally or Meditation 50
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Post by utakumoli on Mar 14, 2011 11:39:18 GMT -5
Perhaps there could be an action to try to sabotage or thwart the trade route somehow by making bad suggestions (not that my character would do anything like that.... :-p) for those of us who voted against it?
Just a possibility.
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Tamori Koichi
Dragon Clan
Dragon Clan * Shugenja * Earth * Void * Yamabushi * Duelist
Posts: 228
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Post by Tamori Koichi on Mar 14, 2011 11:43:04 GMT -5
Realizing that this is the Mantis we are talking about, a very generous amount of Koku should be enough to sway votes. Adding a very high Koku cost for those that have sworn enemy will also slow down the rate of completing the task for them, or it can dissuade them entirely from meddling since they objected before
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Post by Bayushi Sasori on Mar 14, 2011 11:48:36 GMT -5
Ok, but this is getting a bit beyond a joke. Surely some of these allies I have can help me in court too! This is the 3rd update where I can only stand by and watch. Hmmm, what would you like your character to be doing at this negotiation, if you've previously established that you were opposed to the trade route entirely? Well, I may have spoken against the trade route, but now, since it's going ahead anyway, I believe I would be pushing hard to make sure it benefited the Scorpion (I believe that's the Southern route) as much as possible. Such is the courter's life, we have to deal with our enemies in a polite and sincere manner. Even if I have to speak through my 3 Mantis allies or my Yoritomo Courtier Ally to get my point across. If that doesn't work, then there are ways to remove my enemy from obstructing me, to allow the negotiations to continue *smiles behind his mask*
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Post by Bayushi Sasori on Mar 14, 2011 11:52:38 GMT -5
Considering how close the "vote" was during Winter Court, I bet nearly half the players cannot participate in these new missions. I know I can't. I would say more than half, as there will be quite a few, like me, who played both sides. So in fact those who can vote on this will be the minority of players. Let me be clear, I am not against this mechanic. I could get over this in the case on Kaneka. I made a specific enemy, so he won't let me into his tent to talk with his buddies. This I get, but to be excluded wholesale from the courts on one issue? I'm sure I could find many IC ways round this.
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Kakita Shinji
Crane Clan
Laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone
Posts: 485
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Post by Kakita Shinji on Mar 14, 2011 11:53:07 GMT -5
Perhaps there could be an action to try to sabotage or thwart the trade route somehow by making bad suggestions (not that my character would do anything like that.... :-p) for those of us who voted against it? Just a possibility. Yeah but I'm sure there still are honorable ways to act right now.
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Post by utakumoli on Mar 14, 2011 12:01:17 GMT -5
To be sure. I was just making a suggestion.
I rather like Miga's idea, too. It's possible to argue for something like this even if, in the beginning, you were against it. It just takes A LOT more convincing. Perhaps it could cost some flattery or something.
"Yoritomo-san, the truth of your argument is unquestionable, indeed. You have swayed me and I bow to your superior skills. As such, may I suggest this route....?"
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Shosuro Motoyami
Scorpion Clan
I am neither madman nor fool. If you dare to cross the Scorpion, I am the consequence you must face
Posts: 155
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Post by Shosuro Motoyami on Mar 14, 2011 12:18:00 GMT -5
I must agree with Sasori-sama.
Leaving the RP notion aside, creating actions that exclude large swathes of your player base is just bad design. As has been noted elsewhere, the sworn enemy usage seems to create a large unintended concequences.
I really like the idea of increasing the cost for having a mantis enemy. That way, you don't lock out half your players, but there is still concequences for having voted previously. Of any clan, the Mantis should be the most flexible in court when it comes to listening to those with the most koku.
Moyotoshi
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Hiruma Koji
Crab Clan
Hiruma * Crab * Scout * Hiruma Daimyo
Posts: 96
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Post by Hiruma Koji on Mar 14, 2011 12:28:53 GMT -5
Ok, but this is getting a bit beyond a joke. Surely some of these allies I have can help me in court too! This is the 3rd update where I can only stand by and watch. Hmmm, what would you like your character to be doing at this negotiation, if you've previously established that you were opposed to the trade route entirely? Perhaps an option to undermine it, or attempt to flatter one's way into influencing the vote and gain disdain or a more negative response from the Mantis?
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