A renewed Discussion on Honor, Infamy, and Taint

[Hida Joji]

Glory/Honor/Infamy/Taint - Right now they are just numbers that can stop you from making actions.

I'll give you my example, started playing Emerald Empire because I playerd L5R CCG and RPG since it's 1st edition up to 4years ago. I choose crab and around me there where plenty of Tainted actions. Being a Gung-ho Crab and choosing the name of a tainted crab bushi from the Ryoko Owari adventure set I got about 300 taint.

Fast forward 100lvls or so, I know there are 5 actions I can't do because of taint, there is a special Kimono that requires max taint 99 AND to add insult to injury beeing a spider would let me lose enought taint to get by.
Since I'm from a non-corrupted clan I'm stuck with getting 270+ Jade petal tea and waiting 20*270+ hours or around 1y doing a non-interesting, repetive action that requires no planned effort and adds nothing to my vision of the toon.


My point:
The game is constantly changing, we learn by trial and error and starting over is not really an option for a big part of the population.
So we either need taint vs non-taint path or we need some sort of soft-reset.

taint vs non-taint:
Can we join the bloodspeakers ? Can we train with Shinsei? A lot of the emblematic heroes of Rokugan are villans, they are tainted, they achieved something... Good or bad.

I'd like a 1 time per toon option to reset of the problematic taint/infamy. Or even better a hard to do job(s) that would give your toon some RP value with a final reward that would reduce taint to 1. Since it would be a mastery reward then it would be a 1 time affair.

[Shoju]

I have been mulling over an idea in Spider Lands that would be a good place to "test" the ideas that Joji has put forth.

As we know, the Spider are not a great clan. They don't grow in numbers because "they have babies". They grow in numbers because people swear fealty to them.

Jay has been working the death actions in with a very nice, seamless fit. One thing that came up in Spider Lands was what if there were a job that let you "join" the spider. You would leave your old clan alignment, and you would become a Spider. This, would give players who are looking to explore the "tainted" path, a way in which to do so.

I'm unsure what could be done on the flip side of that to allow for a more "higher path", we only ever kicked around the Spider part, because we have players who are obviously corrupted pointing at you yukara who chose clan as an RP "flavor" choice. This would allow them, at a time that they feel best in terms of RP, make the jump from "flavor" to spider.

The coding involved in this could be difficult, and I am always hesitant at suggesting something of this magnitude, because I'm unsure how Jay has designed the Database that makes the game flow.

But, my main point is, that with the testing and actions that Jay has added lately, I could see things getting more complex, and more involved, and more interesting.

[Bayushi Senshi]

I do agree the option to change fealty is cool. I know that there are two players who would love to be able to change their family name to Bayushi or Soshi, instead of Isawa or Utaku.

[Hida Joji]

Glory, Infamy, Honor:

Honor: Personal code of ethics based on a series of premises.

Everyone breaks it, villans at the start of a story, heroes at the end, redemption stories are all about getting it back.

Glory: in L5R was how important you are IN a society within a society setting.
Limited and not very usefull... for example an ogre on the middle of a forest won't obey a high glory courtier.

Nice as a "penis"-meter, could be something to work for but the way stuff is done, it's all about getting K's of it.

Infamy: Not popular actions, actions that make others fear you, actions against the law... something along these lines.

Few examples from old school Rokugan:
- Akodo Toturi fails on the defense of Otosan-Uchi, returns as emporer.
- Hida Kisada tried to conquer Rokugan and failed.
- Hida Yakamo from an Oni hand to a Jade hand, from diabolic to Saint to Sun.

All these guys have high infamy and at some point you would define them as honorable and glorious.

As long as these concepts aren't defined in the game, they should not limit players beyond their own desires. IMO ofc.

[Shoju]

And, I think that as a game, it has progressed to a point where a job like this, with a reasonable cooldown on said job (to avoid people clan jumping) Could be an interesting addition.

Like I said though, it could possibly be a coding nightmare depending on how Jay has things set up, which is why I have been hesitant to even type it.

Another very cool addition to the game, was something that Senshi and I both mentioned in teh suggestions thread. High level content. With this high level content you could indeed push things so that the jobs were more "rigid"

Things like, 5k glory, 2k honor, 1k infamy, 500 taint.

those are large "sums" of the associated numbers, and would keep most people from being able to do both.

For instance.

Perform Super Glorious Deed.
Requires: 5000 Glory.

There would be myself, and one person with higher infamy who could perform this action. Depending on what you consider "high infamy", you have essentially created a job for the higher level, higher glory, characters that cuts off a large amount of the High Dishonor, High Infamy Characters.

Daigotsu Seishi and myself.... Well, it would be hard to cut us out of those jobs, without seriously limited the number of players that you would allow to perform the job. (seishi has ~8k Glory, I'm approaching 10.5k) With my 10.5k Glory, I currently sit #120 overall, and I can point out ~10% of those people who aren't active anymore.


Meaning that we would have to live with an imperfect system, unless the Glory Job was

Reqs:

>5k Glory
<X amount of Infamy
<X amount of taint

That would leave the action purely to the most noble and good samurai. the problem is, that is a large amount of hoops for an honorable samurai to jump through, while the hoops for the bad guys will still be seen as "easier".

As far as taint is concerned,

The most tainted Crab has: 4100
The 10th most tainted has: 270

The most Tainted Crane has: 160
The 10th most has: 20

The most Tainted Dragon has: 270
The 10th most has: 29

The most Tainted Lion has: 522
The 10th most has: 4

The most Tainted Mantis has: 82
The 10th most has: 10

The Most Tainted Phoenix: 1025
the 10th most has: 72

The most Tainted Scorpion has: 1300
The 10th most has: 155

The most Tainted Unicorn has: 1790
The 10th most has: 43

The most Tainted Minor Clansmen has: 867
The 10th most has: 1
(I lumped them all together, otherwise, it would have been a LOT of 0's.

So, for a taint related task, you could easily set the bar FAR lower with far less restrictions, and still achieve the same thing.

[Kitsu Hiraku]

May 6, 2011 10:35:33 GMT -5 Shoju said:

And, I think that as a game, it has progressed to a point where a job like this, with a reasonable cooldown on said job (to avoid people clan jumping) Could be an interesting addition.

It would be an incredible addition. Because right now pretty much everyone that is not a spider is only hindered by the taint. Sure they can do a few more actions (whilst being unable to do some) but at the same time they can't use most of the mastery item. And they can't help the clan in a form other than RP as some jobs are doable only by the spider ( maybe a taint >x limit would be better?)

May 6, 2011 10:35:33 GMT -5 Shoju said:

Another very cool addition to the game, was something that Senshi and I both mentioned in teh suggestions thread. High level content. With this high level content you could indeed push things so that the jobs were more "rigid"

Also a really great idea.

May 6, 2011 10:35:33 GMT -5 Shoju said:

The most Tainted Lion has: 522

Not anymore

[Utaku Kasumi]

May 6, 2011 10:06:41 GMT -5 Bayushi Senshi said:

I do agree the option to change fealty is cool. I know that there are two players who would love to be able to change their family name to Bayushi or Soshi, instead of Isawa or Utaku.

We have already discussed about it with devs. It's in process... probably I mean... maybe, someday

[Soshi Kiso]

I would imagine either a mission, or part of the possible future actions of the Interact tab.

[Tsuruchi Ishla]

Glory vs Infamy is all based off choices one makes through actions & thus is a reflection of how others view you and decides who likes/dislikes you. It inspires songs -plays -poetry -stories, the stuff of legends. Are you welcomed or denied entry - passage etc..

Taint is the hold corruption has on you ,this decides how pure one is or cursed if you will. This to me decides how evil you are or how less of a soul you have.
Necromancy after all is outlawed for reason..correct? You should be hunted down and purged (period). I'm always doing just that.

Honor vs Dishonor this is the code that binds you ,the core of your being. Are you a Hero or a Coward? One should commit seppuku for bringing dishonor, an honorable person would, but a coward most likely won't and lives in a shame.


Some of this may not have any bearing as of yet ..but as this game unfolds through time I believe all will be revealed. It is Epic in proportion and I'm looking upon it with a Broad view instead of short term effect.
On a side note I would love to live in this world setting