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Post by Shoju on May 4, 2011 9:21:51 GMT -5
Moderator Hat On!
After talking with several of the people who were involved in the now closed Investigation thread, I want to give the opportunity to those involved to further the discussion.
I do not plan on partaking in this discussion at this point, but I will be monitoring it. Because of how the last thread was devolving, Conversation in this thread should be kept on target, on point, and please leave the accusatory, sarcastic, bitter, etc... attitudes/tones at the door. Baiting / Accusing / aggressive / wildly off topic posts in this thread will get it closed immediately, and there will be no further discussion about it.
Moderator Hat Off!
With all that out of the way, please continue the conversation.
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Ojii
Dragon Clan
RONIN - Former Dragon Clan Sensei
Posts: 375
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Post by Ojii on May 4, 2011 9:31:25 GMT -5
:-)
Just to clarify, i did'nt say that Jay should "police" the forum, i just asked him to share is touhgt about honor, glory, infamy... in the world of EE.
For my part everything has been said. Thank you all!
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Bayushi Senshi
Scorpion Clan
Scorpion Clan * Clan Champion * Samurai * Kensai * Experienced * Loyal * Unique
Posts: 1,891
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Post by Bayushi Senshi on May 4, 2011 10:03:40 GMT -5
maybe he will.... in 10 days or so.
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Post by Shoju on May 4, 2011 10:16:42 GMT -5
And to clarify my response to you Ojii. (since you are referencing what I said)
I wasn't trying to infer that is what you said. I was trying to make a point that this RP that has sprung from the game, that isn't something in scope or magnitude that I think Jay was working towards when he started developing EE. If he did, he can correct me when he returns.
I was trying to illustrate that Jay has his hands full with EE on Facebook, and that this community here is really beyond the scope of that game I think. I don't think that Jay and Alison had a "plan" for what infamy glory honor and taint were going to be in a setting like this, because I don't think that this level of community interaction was the gameplan from the beginning. That would, I think, make it unnecessary for him to clarify it.
I don't want it to sound like I'm speaking for Jay. I'm not. I don't think he would know me if he ran into me on the street. I'm merely looking at this from a fellow programmer's PoV.
*back to lurking*
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Toku Hirotomo
Monkey Clan
Bushi Paragon of Compassion Clan Champion Toturi's Army
Posts: 793
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Post by Toku Hirotomo on May 4, 2011 11:20:43 GMT -5
I imagine that aside from the basics many things were never fully fleshed out. Fine by me. I've seen the turnover on many games on facebook. Heck, it takes a great deal to keep my gerbil-like mind to focus on a game and play it. I've stuck around because I love the world, and Jay does his best to make this a fun game for everybody. I also really enjoy the rp here in the forum.
Stepping on my soapbox, I understand the frustration some people feel. We all love our respective Clans, Races, Schools, ect. We naturally want to see our actions have meaning in the world. We've already had that with the no sworn enemy mechanic. There was a great deal of grumbling that caused. I've seen arguments that maintaining honor is a part of the world. Getting blocked by others, especialy for the bushi is a part of that world as well. Is it better to have something for only a select group or for as many people as possible? I pay no mind to such 'lost' actions. I made my choice, and my argument was beaten. It happens. I'm sure we'd all like to see more Clan, honor, infamy, shame, and school specific items and actions. A slot for school, joining the kolat, ect. Those actions would be great.
However we must be reminded that, as least as far as I'm aware, Jay's solo on this endevor. Unless he's stashed a great deal of techo-elves it will take a great deal of time to even implement minor changes. I know about as much about computer code as I do about violin construction. So I'm certainly not going to go about saying stuff should be changed. I have no idea how difficult it is.
Stepping off my soap box, we're in a world where we are polite even to bitter enemies. Granted it's a game and certainly not a world I'd want to live in, but perhaps there is real world wisdom in that idea. I'm just a history major though so I know little of ethics.
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Kakita Shinji
Crane Clan
Laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone
Posts: 485
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Post by Kakita Shinji on May 4, 2011 15:27:51 GMT -5
I wasn't going to post here since I've stated my thoughts already but I see some drifting here so I'll just shortly as possible restate my opinions.
In short: I'd just like some small occasional bonuses for honorable and/or not infamous characters. And perhaps some restrictions to very infamous or very tainted characters.
In my perspective Infamy is a negative glory, so bad deeds are known, at least to some people. If some bad deed is made without anyone noticing it should just give negative honor.
That's pretty much it. It seems logical, while tainted, infamous or not honorable characters will still have more actions to do, items to find and so on.
I'm not demanding anything, I'm not scorning any particular way of playing. And I still think Jay and Allison created awesome game, they constantly add new, cool content and even go beyond that by inserting stuff from RP into game.
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Post by vegandeathmachine on May 4, 2011 18:30:37 GMT -5
My humble opinion:
The honor/glory/taint/infamy systems as they stand are open-ended. They also have no direct relation to each other.
As an example, I have Infamy 94. Appallingly high, I suppose. So, should I be stopped and questioned by magistrates?
Oh, but I am a clan magistrate. And a Taisa. And I have several favors owed by Hachi and Kaneka. And we haven't even discussed by Glory (1900+) and Honor (1500+).
So, how Infamous am I?
I guess my rambling point is: these factors all should relate, rather than be considered in isolation.
My other point: Okay, there seems to be an obvious immediate advantage to being the bad guy. So what? Be good for it's own sake.
Although, as an intangible, try playing a Spider on the board, and see how much love you get. I mean, I still like Shoju, but, how many people are clamoring for THAT arranged marriage?
This is not my best post; sick, injured, and grieving. Oh well.
And, by the way, this is still handedly the BEST facebook game I've ever played. Honestly, I'd rather play this game than my xbox 360.
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Shagi the Mad
Crane Clan
Fallen Crane * Scout * Mad * Shadowlands * Experienced 4 Hiruma Shagi
Posts: 180
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Post by Shagi the Mad on May 5, 2011 7:25:27 GMT -5
As an example, I have Infamy 94. Appallingly high, I suppose. So, should I be stopped and questioned by magistrates? So, how Infamous am I? I couldn't find you on the Champions page, so unless you were a member of my Dynasty, I doubt rumours of your behaviour would reach my ears. At sub-100 you wouldn't make the top 10 of any major clan, save perhaps the Lion. Mostly, there would be a couple of rumours following you, depending on how you acquired the infamy (perhaps "He has a gambling habit" or "He has been known to associate with dome unsavoury characters in his business dealings"). A lot would depend on the attitude of the observer. A Crab would probably ignore an infamy of 94, but a Lion would view it quite differently. When you get to my level of infamy (1599) I suspect tales of my carousing, brawling, and the low company I keep are rife. With possibly some more suspicious rumours following them ("I know he's a Hiruma, but the reports he brings back on the Court of Daigotsu are far too detailed for my liking" or "Why does he visit the Kuni quite so often? Is he 'being treated'?") I'm probably right at the upper limit of "normal" infamy. Possibly a little beyond it. Above that limit you get the tales of atrocities and barbarism. That's the land of raiding villages for blood sacrifices and the like. That is the path to "Rokugan's 10 most wanted"
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Post by Shoju on May 5, 2011 8:51:32 GMT -5
Although, as an intangible, try playing a Spider on the board, and see how much love you get. I mean, I still like Shoju, but, how many people are clamoring for THAT arranged marriage? What do you mean by that? Using Akihiko's measurements of comparing infamy, honor, glory, etc... still leaves a little to be desired, because while it can work very well for those with a little infamy, or a little of this or that, I have 10,633 glory -1007 honor 3036 infamy and 1305 taint. I'm not in the top 10 most infamous I'm not in the top 10 most tainted I'm not in the top 20 most dishonorable I'm the 5th most glorious Spider I think we would all agree that I strive pretty hard to RP as a "not good guy".
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Post by vegandeathmachine on May 5, 2011 12:45:53 GMT -5
I was perhaps being a little glib with my crack about the Spider. No offense intended; they are among my favorite clans.
I can understand the frustration of those who've walked the narrow path and seen no reward. That said, if morality and honor is not it's own reward, well...
Again, my concern with the argument of "Infamy > x = harsh random encounter" is that it doesn't account for the ratio of Glory:Infamy, and doesn't account for positions. The random encounter of guard checkpoint I like, because the non-infamous have no problem, infamy itself is no barrier if you are a magistrate, etc.
That said, no matter what comes, still a fun game.
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Bayushi Senshi
Scorpion Clan
Scorpion Clan * Clan Champion * Samurai * Kensai * Experienced * Loyal * Unique
Posts: 1,891
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Post by Bayushi Senshi on May 5, 2011 16:13:07 GMT -5
I still find it hilarious when I get stopped at a guard checkpoint and they won't take my papers. "I'm the mother truckin' champion! You wanna jail me for jaywalking!?"
I click browbeat everytime.
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Ichiro Kojuri
Badger Clan
Badger Clan * Clan Champion * Samurai * General of the Minor Clan Alliance
Posts: 71
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Post by Ichiro Kojuri on May 5, 2011 20:00:16 GMT -5
My opinion, not an argument.
Taint and Infamy was created with a purpose. It might not show it now but am sure the true meaning of it will reflect on our characters in the future.
About infamy first. Infamy, in common usage, is notoriety gained from a negative incident or reputation or a state of extreme dishonor or evil reputation brought about by something grossly criminal, shocking, or brutal. So the higher the point, possibly the more dishonor or more evil or more acts of negative incidents or reputation.
But individuals can still have glory and honor because infamy depends on how someone looks upon the action of the character. Like Robin Hood, he's infamous to the royals but honorable to the masses. Hantei XVI is honorable because he is the emperor but the people hate him. I think he was brutally cruel to them. So basically those who are infamous are not loved by all.
We now go to Taint. I see taint as the level of hold Jigoku has on a character. But some have strong will to overcome this but they cannot overcome the corruption of the flesh. I think Akodo Godaigo is an example. He remained honorable even though his flesh decayed by the taint.
So if Taint and Infamy doesn't have any purpose in this forum and emerald empire game. Then wow! I will start clicking those missions and have a blast..am 217 fate now and might be in the 250 fate club in a couple of days because of it.
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Post by vegandeathmachine on May 5, 2011 20:51:57 GMT -5
Infamy seems to cover quite a range. Infamy covers everything from carousing at a bar, to poisoning a rival duelist, to kidnapping peasants for maho. Barhopping and blood magic seem like apples and oranges.
Also, how do we translate our EE infamy, glory, or honor, to the forums?
Personally, I don't pursue missions that seem antithetical to my vision of Akihiko. Do I lose out on tokens, etc? Yep. Oh well. That's the way I want to play. Numeric efficiency is not the measure by which I judge my success. That said, I get that people like seeing themselves in the top tens, etc.
There are some locations / actions that lock out based on Taint. Infamy does pose some problems (occult murders, guard checkpoint).
Ultimately, Taint and Infamy matter only in your mind. If they don't matter, go for it. If they do, then measure your conduct accordingly.
Personally, I feel that morality that is imposed is a little too 'Clockwork Orange' for me. It robs the choice of any real meaning. I like that there is no real 'advantage' to pursuing a righteous path.
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Post by Soshi Kiso on May 5, 2011 22:52:58 GMT -5
I indeed agree there is never a real 'advantage' to pursuing a righteous path, beyond the desire and nobleness to do it. If the game is to reflect some semblance of being a 'samurai', the life is NOT an easy one. To me, infamy isn't necessarily a reflecting of how bad the character is, but more how willing he is to disregard the Bushido Code of Rokugan. Granted, if your infamy score starts looking like most players Glory rating, that's a whole other ball game. It reflects to me a blatant disregard to the standards of the caste.
If we're just looking at "raw" power, surely those who take "shortcuts" are going to be mechanically rewarded. But how much are we really talking about here, 12-20 minutes of fate? Sorry, I can't buy that makes players who do infamous/taint-able missions to be way ahead of the ball curve to the players that refuse to do those missions. (I'm one of those, btw. Ignore my current Infamy of 1, it'll be gone in a few days =P) The ring tokens take quite awhile to build up once your rings are 11+, believe me. And since any contests only care about your elemental rings up to 10, we're really just talking about a measly few points of fate.
Ok, tired and I think I'm rambling, or at least I feel I might be. But gotta say I love the Clockwork Orange reference! Definitely fits in my book.
As to how those stats reflect on the forums, it's really the individual's responsibility to present them in the way they handle their character's actions. If your character thinks his Infamy score of 100 makes him a naughty boy/girl, then by all means, have fun with it! If you perceive 1000 as the run of the mill samurai, go ahead and run with it. You hit 5k and pretend to be your average slightly flawed samurai, you might just be kidding yourself. =P
Taint, I have no idea. 1 is too high for me!
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Post by Utaku Kasumi on May 6, 2011 2:01:32 GMT -5
Speaking as a player, not a mod. First, I wanted my Kasumi to be pure as a fresh snow. No infamy, no taint. High glory and honor. But then... in my head Kasumi started to evolve. And it was like that: Ok, I have a Unicorn, Shiotome. Hmm, people don't like them or respect them because of their connections with Gaijin. And there are some Unicorns with Gaijin blood. So why not. That way Kasumi has red as blood hair, blue eyes, bright (pale) skin and freckles on her nose. She's tall, really tall (175cm). Never bothers with what people say. Lives her life the way she wants. If she feels like pouting - she pouts, if like crying - she cries. If she wants to laugh - she does that. Her face is full of expressions. So... if she's not like other clans would expect... EVEN if she's really glorious (no one can say that she's not) which makes people know her... they will notice her look (barbarian look), the way she talks, acts... or even what she's eating. In her own clan it's not something weird... but we are talking about the whole community. Then... the more people know her... the more will notice she's a bit different. Which means - infamy. I think I have something like 300+. But compared to my 27500+ glory... it's nothing. And you know what? I am proud of my infamy. It means people are noticing my girl And that she really lives her own way that no one can force on her. Taint is a different story. Some people will get it because they want it. Because it's tempring them. But some... if you are playing L5R for more than a week.. you should know that it's possible to transfer taint to another person, who doesn't know he's infected. You can be infected while fighting with some evil creature. You can be infected by eating some weird food. Does it mean you are evil? Taint 1 is something common I think. I'd worry with taint 10+ (well I do worry... thanks to a friend of mine... that I've asked to click HERE and I went to make her a tea... when I came back my taint was 55, as she was doing 6th job with a taint - funny, isn't it? It took me a long time to get rid of most of it... DUH! Of course this is OOC info and I am gona stab you in the eye if you use it in RP). ANYWAY! As we all grow in power... also our standards are getting higher. To me, on my level and glory... infamy of 1000 is not a big deal. There will never be people who loves you only. Even 1 person who whispers bad about you can be the begining of the storm Also, infamy doesn't mean you had to kill someone... you could. But as I've said somewhere before... you could fart while having a dinner with your daimyo. You could have a weak "head" for drinking and after a cup... you could go to sleep with your face in a bowl or rice. Or... geisha ladies are talking behind your back... that you have problems with your "little friend". Infamy just means you are not "pure" in the eyes of ALL people around you. But it doesn't mean you are bad. Yeah, should end here (water is cold already and I have 30mins to get ready for work... where i have to leave my bath first ). But as you can see... this is MY way of understanding infamy. And this is WHY I've decided to follow my own way.
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