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Post by Shokuma on Aug 16, 2011 7:16:27 GMT -5
Taking things back to game actions, I think it would be better if any competitions were OFF the actual battlefields - i.e. if there is to be one for Battle, it should be about a demonstration of skill in the command camps in order to lobby our ultimate leaders to grant the chacracter a position of power in the planned war (such as being given direct command of an entire Imperial Legion, being part of Kaneka's personal bodyguard, etc). On the battlefield, I felt that the structure of Heroic Opportunities and Brilliant Victories worked really well, and gave a diversity of routes to achieve the same result (though it was a lot of effort to kill the General). Expanding on this format would allow us each to participate in a way that plays to our character's strengths.
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Agasha Shodai
Phoenix Clan Mod
Phoenix Clan * The Void Master * Tensai * Taisa * Enlightened * Paragon of Compassion * Unique
Posts: 783
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Post by Agasha Shodai on Aug 16, 2011 8:28:33 GMT -5
The Mantis are gathering on the Sailing quickmove page.
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Post by Shoju on Aug 16, 2011 8:36:10 GMT -5
Shokuma,
You are missing the point of the competition.
The competitions at Mountain Watch keep, and at the Palace of Crimson Shadows, and another I think, were not a "Hey watch me do this" in the same way that the competitions at Winter Court, The Topaz Championship, and the BLoom of the White Orchid are.
We aren't going to see the Unicorn Cavalry and the PHoenix inquisitors have a Dance off to Bad by Michael Jackson here.
The competition mechanic is pretty open and ingenious for storytelling implications, and can offer a different metric to gauge who wins a battle / who secures the trade line / whose archers cut down whose infantry in a different manner than simply
Oh hey! I did that action a thousand times! We win!
And it is a mechanic that adds for a different perspective. It makes stats matter. It makes your character matter. It makes people feel like they are a part of it.
The Competition mechanic is wide open, and I think that it adds a LOT of value to these types of events.
And yes. Using Heroic Opportunities as the currency for the 'competition' sounds like a FANTASTIC Idea to me, because that is right. We are talking about a HEROIC OPPORTUNITY where YOU the PLAYER can have a PERSONAL impact on the way this turns out.
Isn't that one of the greatest sellings points of the L5R story? The people who single handedly turned the tides?
Bayushi Shoju - and the prophecy leading his clan in a coup in an attempt to save the Empire? Kisada - not bringing his army to side with Shoju because he asked for help? Tsuko - stepping down so Toturi could lead as the Lion Thunder?
These are some "old" examples that I hope resonate with players no matter how long they have been playing, but they are found throughout the game.
Single personalities decisions, actions, glory and shame have had more to to with the story and the outcomes of Rokugan's battles than the resulting troop action at the end.
Yes, you could use my argument to reinforce "just using battle" or whatever, but that REALLY kills the fun.
Why shouldn't Bayushi Senshi, who is rumored to be the greatest Kenjutsu master in the game have a chance to test his mettle on the field of battle against the greatest Hantei supporting Kenjutsu master?
Why shouldn't a Tsuruchi who has toiled away with the idea of making his character the single greatest Tsuruchi since Tsuruchi himself have a chance to prove that he is the superior Kyujutsu master to the Unicorn riding their steed and firing from horse back?
and what better situation to prove it in, than by introducing a scenario to the game where in the time of battle, your "competition" based action has a chance to make a difference for the emperor you support?
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Kakita Mitsouko
Crane Clan Mod
::Daimyo::Kenshinzen::Hatamoto of Crane Clan::Paragon of Duty
Posts: 1,952
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Post by Kakita Mitsouko on Aug 16, 2011 9:12:27 GMT -5
Shoju -sama, it was indeed a great reasoning! I second your words, in general lines it was I was writing right now, but better.
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Alesha
Spider Clan
Fallen Crane * Duelist * Bloodspeaker * Tactician * Maho-Bujin
Posts: 418
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Post by Alesha on Aug 16, 2011 13:05:22 GMT -5
Some people have a talent with words! Totally agree with Shoju.
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Post by Shokuma on Aug 16, 2011 13:29:23 GMT -5
The competitions at Mountain Watch keep, and at the Palace of Crimson Shadows, and another I think, were not a "Hey watch me do this" in the same way that the competitions at Winter Court, The Topaz Championship, and the BLoom of the White Orchid are. I can't comment on the Winter Court or Topaz Championship, they were before my time, but the impression I got from the Battlefield Maneuvers was that it was just another action on the battlefield (the fact that it was a competition meant little), and at the end someone got proclaimed the Best General and a couple of clans got a pat on the back for having multiple people in the top 10. The Bloom of the White Orchid is a nice addition - but the reminders of the Dragon-Phoenix war and the sighting of the Ki-rin is more meaningful than the competition itself (and while for those who gained the prize item, I'm sure it's a nice addition to your inventory, but it just another item as far as I'm aware). Now, I was not say that we shouldn't do competions. I fully agree that they are a useful and valid mechanic (though we chronically need a flip side to this which gives the younger characters and less single-skill focused characters a chance to shine as well, otherwise there'll be more of the grouching we've seen in this thread, because people get left out). What I was trying to express, was that with this war being PvP effectively, unlike the last one, and spread greatly over a host of locations, the competition(s) should not focus on a single battle, but the WAR as a whole, and to have a significant effect, not grant a trinket. They need to be grander than our plain old click-it-to-death jobs, and have impact (As an RPG GM I've found that players get very dismissive of "special items/abilities", but if you put their backs to the wall, make them fight for every step taken, then even the smallest victory is the best thing in the world - but it has to be tangible, they've got to be able to point at it and say "by our blood, sweat and tears, WE did this. WE changed things") A few (rather off the wall) suggestions: * A competition for Stealth in one of the Southern Crane provinces - if the winners is a Hantei supporter, then they set light to the stubble-fields as the last of the harvest is gathered forcing the Crab army to stay put for one phase of the war progression. If a Toturi supporter wins, then they are able to locate and strike at the Crane's granaries, meaning that the Crab do not have to forage, and their invasion goes quicker... * A seduction competition in Kyuden Otomo to sway the actions of a powerful Imperial - if the Hantei supporter wins, then they bring to bear the private forces of the Imperial families (reducing the troop requirement of ONE Hantei task). If a Toturi supporter wins, the Imperial withdraws resources from the war effort and (like the Crab's march) one of the jobs gains a commodity requirement where it would not have had. * (One for the spider/maho users) A medititation competition in Otosan Uchi - Awaken the dead and tainted spirits of the former capital, bringing into play an unexpected additional force, on whichever side the the player supports, but the actions would garner Taint/Infamy for those who chose to perform them (I'd even go as far as putting Daigotsu as an independant third faction if the winner had neither Toturi nor Hantei Supporter) A random thought in closing. Would a competition work if it were calculated on an entire clan basis? I.e. calculate each person's highest score and pool them all together as the Clan's points. (Could even divide by the number of contributers to make it a fair play for even the smallest of clans). Any reward for the winners would either have to be of the nature of my suggestions above, or spawning a 1-click, clan-only job to claim whatever the prize was after the competition finished.
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Post by Shoju on Aug 16, 2011 13:34:36 GMT -5
Those are all fantastic suggestions, and really, in agreement with what I've been getting at.
The more competitions we have, the more things we can do, the more 'personal' this all feels.
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Daigotsu Daisuke
Spider Clan
Former Lion Bushi - Newly Initiated Maho Tsukai
Posts: 330
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Post by Daigotsu Daisuke on Aug 16, 2011 15:09:22 GMT -5
Let me say that for a few days i have been trying to get an idea. Mainly that at mountain watch keep (where i stopped playing for awhile cause the actions got monotonous and we had no idea if our actions had any bearing on the story at all) i missed out on the battle competition. Now i know that no one wants to see battle take the cake in deciding all things. But as someone who picked up the battle skill and this entire war is a place where that skill is stupidly relevant, id like to see that skill taken into effect. What im saying is that damnit i want to be a special snow flake too! There must be a reason as to why only 4 schools have picked up battle as a skill and its either cause they are extra special when it comes to commanding units of soldiers or its because battle is a useless skill that has no effect what so ever. I refuse to believe the latter. I certainly agree that all the other skills are relevant and should have an effect on the story, but rather those who got stuck with a skill that is almost useless at any other time should be able to shine with the skill they have placed much into. As much as i would love to let all characters shine there is a reason why we have mechanics to show who is the winner in competitions and thats because when characters fight someone has to lose. To that effect characters should be able to do something awesome but only if they have the skill to back it up. Why that worries me is because those who have been playing nonstop since winter court will have the edge on everyone else. They always will sadly. People talking about competitions where they have 200 points saved blows my mind cause i spend all my points just trying to keep up with the skill inflation necessary to just do jobs (maybe its cause i only casually play this - except for the war this story arc has been super awesome). Im sorry if i caused a rucus but i felt someone had to speak up for those of us who actually invested time and effort into battle, i'd just like to see it accounted for when its appropriate and not just when its convenient. I trust Jay will do that as thus far he is an awesome gm .
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Post by Shoju on Aug 16, 2011 15:17:47 GMT -5
And I will default back to:
Battle had a competition already. Spellcraft just had its FIRST competition. There are other skills that haven't had a single competition yet that are "class" skills. I would expect those skills to have a competition before we get back around to a second competition for a skill.
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Shagi the Mad
Crane Clan
Fallen Crane * Scout * Mad * Shadowlands * Experienced 4 Hiruma Shagi
Posts: 180
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Post by Shagi the Mad on Aug 16, 2011 16:29:35 GMT -5
The thing I notice here is that some people are arguing for Game Balance (i.e. spread the competitions around the skills equally) and others are arguing for Story Logic (i.e. the competitions should fit the story).
My opinion is that there should be elements of both. Some skills will be more applicable to competitions and will come around more often. Just because there have been two or three battle competitions (MWK, Topaz Championship I remember. Was there a Go contest at Winter Court?) shouldn't preclude there being another just because there hasn't been a (for example) Stealth competition. On the other hand Jay should be looking to spread the competitions around, to try and be as "skill inclusive" as possible. But there will never be as many opportunities for some skills to be used competitively as others. Iaijutsu and Battle competitions will always be more logical than, say, Shadowlands or Meditation competitions.
I'd really like to see the structures currently in place combined to make more complex stories. For instance, a Hantei Lore action in the Agasha Libraries and a Kaneka Lore (or Investigation) action in the Hall of Records both dropping a mastery item that opens up a Story arc that finishes in the Shinomen Mori with a Hunting competition. The ultimate winner getting a magical McGuffin that gives his side some sort of advantage in the war. That sort of thing.
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Toku Hirotomo
Monkey Clan
Bushi Paragon of Compassion Clan Champion Toturi's Army
Posts: 793
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Post by Toku Hirotomo on Aug 16, 2011 18:02:56 GMT -5
Sound ideas, though my amicable nature is well known. I'm fine with the status quo until Jay-sama does something different. I'm fine with a clicking war, I'm fine with a contest. I'll admit the prospect of a kenjutsu contest is appealing to me due to the best swordsmen being in our camp, but I'm fine either and any way.
I'd like a numerous amount of things as well, the ability to vote for a Monkey stance, the Great Clans taking me seriously, a pony. I'm fine with everything as is though. I work with my chosen task for the week, then the update tells me if I need to do something else or steer the course. Then again, I'm an amicable sort of fellow. That's why I play Monkey.
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Agasha Shodai
Phoenix Clan Mod
Phoenix Clan * The Void Master * Tensai * Taisa * Enlightened * Paragon of Compassion * Unique
Posts: 783
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Post by Agasha Shodai on Aug 16, 2011 19:25:08 GMT -5
One idea I had was to have the shugenja pool together to summon one of the Elemental Dragons (similar to what the Phoenix Clan did with the - as yet - unlocated Egg of the Void in the original timeline to stop the Unicorn from taking control of Toshi Ranbo after Kaneka and Toturi III - here Hantei XL for those who can't tell the players without a scorecard - died) and get THEM to tell us who's the true Emperor. Let's face it, no one is going to be dumb enough to argue with one of the Dragons when they make a declaration. I wonder if Jay will roll out the Tomb of the Seven Thunders... ;D
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Post by Mirumoto Shigekazu on Aug 16, 2011 20:04:20 GMT -5
Does it seem strange for you to see Hantei XL too? Like "do you want french fries with that?"
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Toku Hirotomo
Monkey Clan
Bushi Paragon of Compassion Clan Champion Toturi's Army
Posts: 793
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Post by Toku Hirotomo on Aug 16, 2011 20:09:57 GMT -5
He may be Emperor, but he's half the man Hantei XXL was.
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Agasha Shodai
Phoenix Clan Mod
Phoenix Clan * The Void Master * Tensai * Taisa * Enlightened * Paragon of Compassion * Unique
Posts: 783
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Post by Agasha Shodai on Aug 16, 2011 21:57:49 GMT -5
Hantei 30? All he did was grant Minor Clan status to the Tsi family. Hantei XL has done things of far greater import. ;D Remember in Roman numbers X = 10, L = 50 and if you put a smaller number before a larger number it means "subtract 10 from 50"
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