9/17/2011: Sincerity

[Doji Naetaru]

Sept 18, 2011 11:36:56 GMT -5 Bayushi Senshi said:

Sept 18, 2011 5:59:17 GMT -5 Doji Naetaru said:

What about Senshi realizing that the Hantei is the righteous true Emperor and ordering the Scorpion to stand by his side?
This would show unity in the face of danger. What's more I'd suggest that either Senshi orders his immediate family members to stand down from the fight (wife Haruka) and NOT join Kaneka.

Haruka and I have discussed this and there is no way her character would agree to a decision like that. Her Unicorn heritage a pride cannot support the man who did nothing as the Unicorn lands were burned and attacked by the yobanjin, she is indebted to Kaneka.

I see what you mean but I am afraid that she is honor bound to the Scorpion decision. She can't join the fray as it will denote her disobedience to her lord which is the Bayushi daimyo. This is Rokugani society :-). A samurai cannot override the decision of his lord, lest he shames him and his Clan.

[Moto Souji]

Sept 18, 2011 11:10:19 GMT -5 Asahina Yukihime said:

Totally out of topic but: Moto Souji-san, your avatar is awesome (and reminds me Robot Unicorn Attack game, which is also awesome )

I didn't mean to try and pull the conversation off-topic but I couldn't help but picture it and had to post it. Many apologies if it interrupted the serious conversation taking place.

Also, thanks, it hakumen from Blazblu riding the robot unicorn. ;D

[Bayushi Senshi]

Sept 18, 2011 13:33:41 GMT -5 Doji Naetaru said:

Sept 18, 2011 11:36:56 GMT -5 Bayushi Senshi said:

Haruka and I have discussed this and there is no way her character would agree to a decision like that. Her Unicorn heritage a pride cannot support the man who did nothing as the Unicorn lands were burned and attacked by the yobanjin, she is indebted to Kaneka.

I see what you mean but I am afraid that she is honor bound to the Scorpion decision. She can't join the fray as it will denote her disobedience to her lord which is the Bayushi daimyo. This is Rokugani society :-). A samurai cannot override the decision of his lord, lest he shames him and his Clan.

Were we all honor bound to any clans decisions then that would mean there was no room for clan members to share their own dissent. The dragon champion for instance, or Kasumi supporting Hantei, or Masamoto and a few others of the mantis trying to find peaceful solutions instead of attacking the crane.

Haruka is not going to recant her support. And I wouldn't expect anyone in this game to recant support for either emperor because of the clan vote.

Heck, were people actually honor bound to the daimyo's decision, the scorpion would be supporting Toturi now, wouldn't they?

[Enishi]

Well, you just can't cross a feudal system where your lord's orders are everything and a "democratic" system where everyone gets a vote on things, and hope that it will work. I don't think it's a problem for most players - there will always be dissidents within any given faction or clan. I have to admit that I find all the "going through loops to explain why the champion is doing something different from the clan he's supposed to lead" is getting more and more awkward. I don't mean this as an offence to Takezo-sama, Senshi-sama or Kazuma-sama; I see it as an inherent flaw to the champions system.
Fortunately, this shouldn't bother me too much in my next incarnation as a Spider, considering they have no champion Which reminds me... *heads off to the Forum info section*

[kentaro]

At the risk of waxing too philosophical, Senshi-sama's dilemma helps to illustrate one issue in role-playing in a feudal setting. The individual player wants their 'say' to matter, but if the lords have no teeth to enforce their dictates, the setting can break down.

The point about the Mantis is well-put; there are as many vocal Hantei players as there are Toturi backers.

Luckily, I am not in a position of power, so this quirk benefits me. My clan or lord can make a decision, and I may ignore it with ease.

[Bayushi Senshi]

Exactly, I cannot actually force anyone to listen to me just because I have a high status score. The player has to make that choice. I respect those player choices as much as I can. And only ask that I may have room to make choices for my own character as well.

[Ikoma Buretto]

Duty versus personal desire is a common thread in samurai fiction and a great source of conflict from which good stories can arise. I support Haruka and Senshi in their player choices to act however they want their characters to act and frankly see Naetaru's efforts to further the pro-Hantei agenda by saying, "That's not how it works in Rokugan." to be bullying. Let them play how they like, and let others roleplay the ramifications. Sheesh.

[Daidoji Fitsu]

I think bullying may be overstating it. It us everyone's right to play their character the way they see fit, but there's nothing wrong with taking note of actions that run contrary to what is the accepted norm in a setting. Especially when things against the the typical of the setting become staples of pc activities.

[Bayushi Senshi]

it is not bullying, I asked for peoples opinions and I wanted to hear them all.

[Tamori Manji]

I think that everyone should know when to embrace the consequences of their actions. A Clan Champion should "champion" his/her Clan and represent its positions. If a Clan Champion can't, for any reason, agree or embrace the decisions of his/her Clan, he/she should gracefully know when to step down from the position.

With a daimyo the matters get more complex. Everyone in a family is honor bound to answer to his daimyo and the daimyo answers to the Emperor. If we followed that rule strictly, Kaneka's rebellion wouldn't even have started. But here, in the forums, everyone is free to take personal decisions regarding these matters, especially because we have no control whatsoever over what the players who are not part of the forums may do. So, all we can do is adapt.

Take Manji per example. When I've started playing him, there were but a handful of Mantis players here and most of us supported Hantei. So, we've decided that we would represent a minority in the Mantis that would secretly act in order to try and help the Emperor supporting Clans. But then other players came back into activity, some of then supported Hantei, many others Toturi and we came to have the forum players divided about their allegiances. What did we do then? We've talked things over in order for our Clan to officially support Toturi (because that was the mechanical decision of everyone who plays the game), while a handful of us would try to both lessen the impact the war would have over the Empire and preserve its structure strong (that is, protect the common people and the trade routes).

But, and here is where things get interesting, since not supporting Kaneka would be, theoretically, disrespectful to the Clan's wishes, I've decided for Manji to abandon his family name and become a ronin. In my opinion, when a player decides to go against the decisions of his Clan, there are two paths, either he respectfully withdraws from it or he commits seppuku. As I've always seen shugenja as characters whose allegiances to the kami and the Fortunes come way before those to their worldly lords (much like monks), I've had no trouble following this path.

What I don't understand is how some people can be vocal against their own Clan's allegiances and still remain on their Clans. That, in my opinion as a player, is treason and it is punishable by either dishonorable death or seppuku. But, since there is no way for any of us to actually ask someone to seppuku or follow his duty, there's also no point in criticizing these actions. As such, I think the best course of action is "to each their own".

I've chosen the path I thought the best and most natural, according to the logic of the setting, for Manji. But it would be silly of me to ask that everyone followed what I think is best for their characters. So, the best I, or anyone else, can truly do, is try to talk things out and see what each of us want to bring to our collective stories and what do people have in mind for their characters. I sincerely think we could really smooth things out if we just talked and respected one another's stories more and tried to "win" while RPing less. There is no "win" while RPing, we can only lose by spoiling a potentially good storyline.

I must say, I'm not trying to argue or impose my opinions on anyone here, so, let's please not turn this into the conflict it is not.

[Bayushi Senshi]

Thank you, Manji. Very valid points. You would suggest then that I either step down as champion or recant my support for Kaneka. (If not to just do as I please). The interesting thing is that for the most part my clan does continue to support me as their leader regardless of my affiliation, I do a really good job of harassing them about it constantly xD.

I do not believe stepping down as Takezo has is the proper course for Senshi, as the scorpion clan still has its own agenda to complete.

[Tamori Manji]

Given the facts that everyone knows about, that is what I would do Senshi, personally. But we are different persons and you may see interesting options where I don't (and vice-versa). So, if you think you have an interesting story to tell by all means, do go on. I also think it's rude for someone to interrupt another storyteller in the middle of the story or judge him beforehand, so, know that I will never do that intentionally.

Also, a Clan Champion should respect his Clan's wishes. If your Clan wishes you to stay ahead of it and feels that you represent them well, who am I to say otherwise? Especially because it's not up to me to know about the Scorpion's plans. Maybe you staying as their Champion is part of an agenda no one knows about yet. It would be unfair of me to judge, after all, we play very different roles here.

[kentaro]

Damn, Enishi. I think we are kharmic twins. I was typing my post at the same time. You must have beat me on the submit button...

[Akodo Tsanuri]

Manji-san, what you said would work if we really were in Rokugan. But we are only players and we live in democratic world. This game needed a possibility for everyone to decide on their character side of conflict. If Jay-sama didn't do it many players would abandon the game.

in Rokugan democracy doesn't exist and decision of clan champion is clan's decision. of course some samurai may disagree and they mostly become ronin or comit seppuku. if family daimyo disagree, there will probably be war between this family and rest of the clan that will end with family anihilation or changing clan.
but here everybody can decide not only for himself but also for the entire clan. and on which side clan will be be decided in vote. the results are known after the vote and well, you can't undo your actions. and also you can't change your side, even if you want to.

sorry, I don't know what to advise Senshi-sama. I like the wall version. or going to the court and trying to kill the emperor. that should made things simple

[Enishi]

The echo effect had me smiling too - though I think you put it better than I did. I can always be your evil twin that supports the Hantei if you wish