|
Post by kentaro on Sept 18, 2011 17:03:26 GMT -5
OOC - As soon as we get a Spider Monastic Order, I will join you there.
Also, I always assumed I was the evil twin.
|
|
Daidoji Fitsu
Crane Clan
A prepared Daidoji is an implacable foe on the field of battle. Fitsu is always prepared.
Posts: 311
|
Post by Daidoji Fitsu on Sept 18, 2011 17:29:42 GMT -5
For the record, when this whole thing started I was a Toturi supporter. It wasnt until after things started escalating that I realised how baseless his claim is and changed to supporting Hantei.
|
|
Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
|
Post by Tamori Manji on Sept 18, 2011 17:56:04 GMT -5
Manji-san, what you said would work if we really were in Rokugan. But we are only players and we live in democratic world. This game needed a possibility for everyone to decide on their character side of conflict. If Jay-sama didn't do it many players would abandon the game. in Rokugan democracy doesn't exist and decision of clan champion is clan's decision. of course some samurai may disagree and they mostly become ronin or comit seppuku. if family daimyo disagree, there will probably be war between this family and rest of the clan that will end with family anihilation or changing clan. but here everybody can decide not only for himself but also for the entire clan. and on which side clan will be be decided in vote. the results are known after the vote and well, you can't undo your actions. and also you can't change your side, even if you want to. sorry, I don't know what to advise Senshi-sama. I like the wall version. or going to the court and trying to kill the emperor. that should made things simple No Homura-san, with very few exceptions, we live in a capitalist world. The democracy in it is subjugated to the economic system. Saying that we live in a democratic world would be mistaking the trees for the woods. But I digress... About the other matters, nothing that you've said disagrees with anything that I've said.
|
|
|
Post by Bayushi Hiromitsu on Sept 18, 2011 19:59:43 GMT -5
Thank you, Manji. Very valid points. You would suggest then that I either step down as champion or recant my support for Kaneka. (If not to just do as I please). The interesting thing is that for the most part my clan does continue to support me as their leader regardless of my affiliation, I do a really good job of harassing them about it constantly xD. I do not believe stepping down as Takezo has is the proper course for Senshi, as the scorpion clan still has its own agenda to complete. Well, if you must step down to RP reasons I won't be in the way. ^_^ Pls, feel free. Have a nite trip. Send me a card.
|
|
Doji Naetaru
Crane Clan
Doji Daimyo - Courtier - Otomo Twin
Posts: 687
|
Post by Doji Naetaru on Sept 19, 2011 0:59:14 GMT -5
Duty versus personal desire is a common thread in samurai fiction and a great source of conflict from which good stories can arise. I support Haruka and Senshi in their player choices to act however they want their characters to act and frankly see Naetaru's efforts to further the pro-Hantei agenda by saying, "That's not how it works in Rokugan." to be bullying. Let them play how they like, and let others roleplay the ramifications. Sheesh. I wish neither to provoke nor to instigate anything but truly "bullying" Buretto? Are we playing the same game? Are we reading the same lines? The only reason I entered the discussion is because Senshi wished to discuss this further and as I understand everyone is entitled to his opinion. The points I explained is that in a setting such as Rokugan the way of action a player follows, would normally differ from the decision one makes in a democratic society. Senshi and Haruka are no nameless samurais or indistinct persons, they are the Scorpion Champion and Lady Scorpion and their actions bear ramifications far higher than of any other Scorpion. I do not "hate" neither player, nor I wish them "ill", I simply express my opinion on the matter with arguments, thus no need to "bully" anyone as you fail to describe. Am I harassing anyone? No. Sheesh!
|
|
Kitsuki Yuushahime
Dragon Clan
This person sometimes posts things that are tl;dr
Courtier Magistrate Ambassador Daimyo
Posts: 1,140
|
Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Sept 19, 2011 1:06:35 GMT -5
Deep breaths people. We're all friends here. Smile smile
Do what you want Senshi. The Dragon rationalised it by saying the Clan were given freedom to do what their heart told them with this event and then the more important Dragon but not its full leadership went ahead and pushed people to support Hantei.
|
|
|
Post by Utaku Kasumi on Sept 19, 2011 2:12:04 GMT -5
As I've warned you before...
Suffer now and sing with me!
|
|
Matsu Kaito
Lion Clan
Lion Clan * Samurai * Kensai * Duelist * Paragon
Posts: 231
|
Post by Matsu Kaito on Sept 19, 2011 2:42:05 GMT -5
In medieval Japan only seppuku would be the option for a a samurai if he didn't agree with the option of his clan. Only the daimyo or a high ranking person could have ordered you to live the life of a ronin - and in this case as I imagine a lot of warriors seppukued also. This was the history part of my post.
Of course I know this is a game, and I would be truly sad to miss a player like Senshi. Many of us built up characters and fell a little bit in love of them. That's why I was thinking about alternatives.
There are two thing I could imagine for the Lord of Secrets:
1. he would play his own death, and offer his services as Kaneka's underhand (something like Sunetra did, and this would be pretty cool I guess :-)) 2. Follow the decision of the other Scorpion player and fight on Hantei's isde. Actually Senshi haven't done anything against the Emperor, so the black sheep hsould be welcomed in the court.
For Haruko...she should follow his Champion and husband. Or Senshi goes to Hantei, Haruko becomes the underhand of Kaneka, and the Scorpion will be on the winning side in either way :-)
Don't misunderstand me, I don't wanna tell you what to do, I was just sharing a few ideas.
|
|
|
Post by Akodo Tsanuri on Sept 19, 2011 2:47:48 GMT -5
Crane tortures
|
|
Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
|
Post by Tamori Manji on Sept 19, 2011 4:28:54 GMT -5
Only the daimyo or a high ranking person could have ordered you to live the life of a ronin - and in this case as I imagine a lot of warriors seppukued also. Kaito, sorry but I don't have to go far to disagree with that statement. The last paragraph of the History section in the following article mentions "(...) the famous 18th century writer Kyokutei Bakin renounced his allegiance to Matsudaira Nobunari, in whose service Bakin's samurai father had spent his life. Bakin became voluntarily a rōnin, and eventually spent his time writing books (many of them about samurai)and being festive." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RoninThe "discrimination" against ronin was of a social nature, mainly because a man without a lord was a man without lands and a fixed stipend (measured in koku. Each koku was equivalent to 150 kilograms rice, which was supposedly enough to feed one person for a year). Still, you say well when you mention "warriors", that is, bushi. I don't see the same rules being applied to monks or shugenja, since both classes of people served a greater purpose (one of religious nature) than simply working for a lord. This is an even more valid argument in Rokugan, where magic truly works and the Fortunes do watch over you.
|
|
Matsu Kaito
Lion Clan
Lion Clan * Samurai * Kensai * Duelist * Paragon
Posts: 231
|
Post by Matsu Kaito on Sept 19, 2011 6:55:19 GMT -5
Manji san, I don't want to argue with your post. I think what you mention is one of the rare exeptions, you think differently, which is OK. I wrote those lines because I don't think going ronin is not an option for a champion - though Tamago rocks :-)
I'm not a pro about Japanese history though it interests me. I'm sure there were exeptions, and I belive throwing your own life was hard either for a bushi - so I don't think it happened that often as we from other cultures imagine.
I'd like to avoid historical arguments, because we play in rokugan not in the mediavel Japan and I really hate those guys, who wants to convince everybody about their point of view. :-)
|
|
|
Post by kentaro on Sept 19, 2011 7:00:38 GMT -5
As always, I am more than willing to throw down in a historical discussion/debate.
That said, this thread is not the place. Start one in General Discussion, and I will gladly join, fully strapped with all the sources I can find.
|
|
Asahina Yukihime
Crane Clan
Crane Clan Ikazuchi
* Air * Water * Shugenja * Artisan * Asahina Family Daimyo *
Posts: 750
|
Post by Asahina Yukihime on Sept 19, 2011 7:26:32 GMT -5
Now accepting suggestions for what to do with my character. Some ideas include running off with the wifey to fight for toturi, while my armies go to hantei. I could bow before hantei for a reason I can't think of off the top of my head (someone please feel in the blanks xD) or not rp? Any other thoughts. >.o I may be missing something... I really don't understand why and how one decision got such dramatic tone >.o That is funny worldwide phenomena ... people ask for suggestion but, most of times, they will do what they want anyway, despite of suggestions given It this case, just a game, totally "do whatever you like", you can even keep role-playing as if hordes of NPCs are following you to Toturi's side. Or you can say some manipulation made people think clans decision was one when it really was another, a few words can fix it (blame the Crane, it seems to be enjoyable here may be Moyotoshi and the other Hanteists were Crane/Dragon/Phoenix in disguise at Hantei's court ). May be someone is using Kolat's methods and you got Brain Washed. Now... Haruka must save you! Evil twin? Maho clone? I'm just going for extreme instances. But, it's a game, you can easily fix it with some creativity, stories are flexible. Aim a totally unexpected sotryline, allow your character not to be the all-might-one all the time, get a party to help you (more D&D needed?), allow them to be on the spots and to have importance some times. Tell a good story and everyone will likely believe it (and even enjoy it).
|
|
|
Post by Mirumoto Shigekazu on Sept 19, 2011 7:35:22 GMT -5
Kaito-san, I must respectfully disagree. Seppuku was not only option with rare exceptions. Apart of becoming a ronin (do you remember famous 47 ronin?) one can start rebellion, retire to monastery (and pull one's strings from there), go for a pilgrimage or join enemy family. If everyone who disagreed with their masters would perform seppuku, Sengoku-jidai would never occur.
|
|
|
Post by kentaro on Sept 19, 2011 7:46:52 GMT -5
I agree with Shigekazu-san, but again suggest that any discussions about the historical nature of bushido, disobedience, rebellion, etc. belong in another part of the forum; likely "General Discussion."
|
|