Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Oct 10, 2011 18:01:45 GMT -5
Sprinkles, I agree with your arguments and ideas. As you've said, it is far from desirable to have players banned and the ability to ban someone should never be used as a mechanism to enforce power or coerce people. I think we all can agree that, before thinking about punishment, we should always try to talk things over and seek a common solution. Especially because we have no other means to solve conflicts in this forum.
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Kitsuki Yuushahime
Dragon Clan
This person sometimes posts things that are tl;dr
Courtier Magistrate Ambassador Daimyo
Posts: 1,140
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Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Oct 10, 2011 23:56:25 GMT -5
Bah, I lack stable access to the internet and apparantly all hell breaks lose on the forums. Strange, it seems to still be pretty reasonable and civilised to me. I am not on the staff here but have moderated for way bigger and less civilised forums than this. To me, this place is lovely. Even a heated "argument" between players sounds more like two friends having a vocal disagreement to me, rather than two guys having a punch up like it so often does elsewhere.
If people are leaving because of a "threat", which I read as "the desire to enforce the rules by giving punishments to people who break them" then they are welcome to. It is the same as people leaving a country because they don't like its laws. They are welcome to. However, that minority opinion does not mean the country's laws are wrong or should be changed or not enforced. I think the arrangement here is sensible. The issue seems to be, according to some, a lack of trust/faith in the staff. I do not share that opinion as I think all of the staff here are level headed and do their best to be fair.
Setsuro and Senshi and Shoju have all admitted mistakes in the past. That is rare for a forum! It shows they are all human. That they can realise their mistakes is wonderful - it leads to things on the forum improving. However, this rarely matters as anything important is discussed by all the staff from what I can tell. So the potential for a major mistake is very tiny. Looking through the list of banned people I can see why they have been banned - constant rule violations even after warnings or the creation of multiple accounts (a major rule violation).
Better still than saying some people have left the forums due to certain things or they are wary of joining - how about those people actually come here themselves and state their concerns and/or grievances. Shoju, I think it isn't the best solution to demand evidence from Aroru. You are both right, as was Setsuro in the past. Aroru shouldn't have to say who they are or give examples - it would be hearsay anyway. He could say "Yeah, this guy Bob and his girlfriend Amy". It wouldn't mean anything. No, anyone that disagrees with anything should contact the management or just post here themselves. I fully believe they would deeply consider any such comments. Furthermore, what would those who did so have to worry about anyway? Being banned? They have left the forum or don't want to post due to their concerns anyhow. Nothing lost there then. And they wouldn't be banned anyway >_>
So I therefore ask that anyone with any disagreements please come on here and state them plainly and politely as Aroru and Sprinkles have done. I myself do not know of anyone like this and my recollection of the past forum is such that I believe 95% of people posting there were not opposed to the new forum. I do recall one or two that had some reservations but even they were supportive of the move overall. They were just concerned about some of the specifics.
Above all, please have some faith in the staff here and remember they are people too - they have bad days and make mistakes. In return, be aware that the staff are aware that we posters are the same. We make mistakes, sometimes break the rules without realising or due to a moment of anger. That is why there are warnings. That is why PMs are sent - and I am sure, if there was a genuine mistake or someone was sincerly remorseful for an offensive comment - then they would be forgiven.
This isn't some draconian forum and I hope it never becomes that way. If people continue to see and treat each other as human then I think that will always be the case.
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Post by Mirumoto Shigekazu on Oct 11, 2011 2:30:21 GMT -5
I felt strong urge to write strong words in this topic. So I had closed my laptop and slept quite well whole night. Now it is morning with very lovely sunrise, glass of whisky and box of tissues (I have a flu or something) and I still fell urge to write.
Sprinkles, when you said about disliking "ban" word I felt like I am talking with some immature anarchist who gets angry when he hears words "prison" or "exile". While I see Internet as a place which is the closest to idea of a free world I still see need for laws and law-enforcement. While there were only discuss lists you may add any bad guy who is spamming or constantly irritating you to black list. You have no such option at forum so there is a need for moderators who can ban a guy who is hated by more than half of other members and is irritating for most from the other half. As long as there will be people who are unable to live peacefully in community and they are unwilling to learn and change there will be need for someone who can banish them. And in my opinion everyone who disagree with the idea of judges in public places should go at early night to the worst district of town with known low or even none police security and having visible signs of wealth with him. And it would be good to notice that no mod has ability to ban. Only admin can ban, mod can only propose to ban somebody. I am also glad to hear that besides you feel bad with banning you also see need for existing ability to ban. I hope bad emotions which your post raised in me are just caused by misunderstanding not by drastic difference in characters.
Aroru, you use plural when you speak about moderators. I would like to know who are you talking about because I am one of the mods and now I feel accused of sentencing someone who did nothing wrong; in my opinion I have never done that so I want to know if I am wrong in my opinion or you are wrong with blaming whole group for actions of individuals. I also want to point when I was a mod and broke the rules I had my 72h of cool-down. I also never used my mod position to enforce good attitude towards me from any player and just ignored minor attacks on me as a mod and my ability to perform that duty. That is why I want from everybody who complaining on the staff work to complain personally and with showing reasons - I do not like to be accused of something I did not do. And yes, speaking "some mods" also includes me. Hiding behind argument some mod did not require that is not working - when you accuse me I want to have ability to defend.
At the end I would like to show how we are coping with problematic cases on forum in which I am most engaged. For past five years it worked great and still works, we are seemed as a united and very effective group with high credit of trust. When some problem occurs there are two ways of starting decision process - every user can post at "Pillory" attaching evidence and quote of broken law(s) which is copied to mod area or any mod and admin can start discussion directly in mod area. Then starts discussion within staff - sometimes only on forum, sometimes with use of phones or even meetings face to face. When we decide if there was or was not any violation of our law. It is important that our law has clause to judging also on base of general rules of living in community, not only rules written in forumetiquette. When sentence is set one of the admins post it at „Pillory” and it is forbidden to discuss it (you may be punished for doing that). As I said it works very good for 5 years and since then we had 5 permanent bans and some voluntary exiles. These voluntary exiles are our best vent – when you do not like the way community works you can go somewhere else. I wonder if such system would work here. I think some people would need to used to it, some people would be banned very quickly, some would left the forum; but those who would stay would be much more happy than they are now. That would be those who not forget this is just a game not a real war and the staff is here primarily to help you not to punish you.
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Post by Utaku Kasumi on Oct 11, 2011 3:23:06 GMT -5
![](http://cheznectarine.c.h.pic.centerblog.net/240f0dc7.gif) I have an idea. IF you do not like any rule that we have posted here, on this forum... try giving us other ideas. How would you solve a problem that we are trying to solve with all those rules? Feel free to do that, we would appreciate any ideas from you, that use this board. Put yourself in our place and try thinking how to prevent breaking rules "your way". But do that calmly. Peace and strawberry icecream!
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Oct 11, 2011 6:57:56 GMT -5
Sprinkles, when you said about disliking "ban" word I felt like I am talking with some immature anarchist who gets angry when he hears words "prison" or "exile". While I see Internet as a place which is the closest to idea of a free world I still see need for laws and law-enforcement. While there were only discuss lists you may add any bad guy who is spamming or constantly irritating you to black list. You have no such option at forum so there is a need for moderators who can ban a guy who is hated by more than half of other members and is irritating for most from the other half. As long as there will be people who are unable to live peacefully in community and they are unwilling to learn and change there will be need for someone who can banish them. And in my opinion everyone who disagree with the idea of judges in public places should go at early night to the worst district of town with known low or even none police security and having visible signs of wealth with him. And it would be good to notice that no mod has ability to ban. Only admin can ban, mod can only propose to ban somebody. I am also glad to hear that besides you feel bad with banning you also see need for existing ability to ban. I hope bad emotions which your post raised in me are just caused by misunderstanding not by drastic difference in characters. Shige, the main point of sprinkles argument was not about liking or disliking law/order but that the power to enforce it shouldn't be used as a means for coercion. With that, I think we all can agree. The power to "decide for others" should not be flaunted or used vainly, for it stems from the people. It should be used for the people not to promote oneself or feed one's own ego. Mainly because this power only exists while people agree that it exists, you cannot enforce it, otherwise you'll end up inevitably creating an opposing force that will go directly against it. One cannot, or at least should not, restrict another person's liberties simply because of personal disagreements. After all, this is, supposedly, a forum open to the whole community who play the game, not only to a handful of like-minded friends. I'm not here to accuse anyone of doing the things I've mentioned, but I felt the need to discuss the matter (mainly because what I've said sums up what shouldn't be done with power, lest one become a tyrant). I can perfectly understand sprinkles point of view and I hope that, one day, you can too. EDIT: I must thank you because this discussion reminded me of an old song that used to inspire me. For all those who care: grooveshark.com/s/Predisposed+To+Oppose/27Lbgr?src=5
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Post by Hida Joji on Oct 11, 2011 8:20:23 GMT -5
I usually just click on the facebook game and post stuff on the items thread. I still play RPGs ( WH40K currently ) with a week-evening group so I bypass the rp stuff posted here.
Here is my question:
- Is there a direct/in-game connection between the rp and the facebook game? - Are ppl writing the rp with an eye on results? - Is every line of rp "EE canon" ?
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Post by Shoju on Oct 11, 2011 8:35:50 GMT -5
I usually just click on the facebook game and post stuff on the items thread. I still play RPGs ( WH40K currently ) with a week-evening group so I bypass the rp stuff posted here. Here is my question: - Is there a direct/in-game connection between the rp and the facebook game? - Are ppl writing the rp with an eye on results? - Is every line of rp "EE canon" ? This is the relevant part of the first post that answers your questions. Roleplaying that takes part on this forum does not in any way dictate events in the Emerald Empire Facebook game. Your first reaction is, "BUT! I HAVE SEEN THAT IT DOES!" No. You have seen Jay use the Rp that has happened here, as the basis for actions in the Emerald Empire Facebook Game. That doesn't mean he uses every RP. You need to approach RPing on this forum as RPing within the Source Material that Jay puts out. He is the one in charge of the story at the Facebook Game Level. He is the one who decides what ideas to use, what stories to go with. Think of the EE game as your DM and his trusty guide, and sometimes he rewards you for creative thinking.
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Kitsuki Yuushahime
Dragon Clan
This person sometimes posts things that are tl;dr
Courtier Magistrate Ambassador Daimyo
Posts: 1,140
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Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Oct 11, 2011 8:37:49 GMT -5
I'm not staff but I bothered to read all the previous posts so let me give you my interpretation of the answers
- No. People say it happens in game but nothing is ever official unless it happens in game. So it is more wishful thinking - No. Some of them may like results but most people are just having fun and there is no guarantee to ever getting results and frankly it is kind of lame to start RPs here with that intention - No. Only that which appears in game. And even then it is only ever vaguely hinted at
Edit: Aww damn Shoju, you beat me to it. Also, aren't you meant to be on holiday? Go be relaxed somewhere! Now!
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Post by Shoju on Oct 11, 2011 9:05:56 GMT -5
Eh, I got over being pissy and will just clean up the stupid mess I made trying to fix things around here.
Also, Yuusha's post just a little way up this page should be required reading.
People are assuming that I'm talking about every little squabble that has come up on this forum is going to get them in shit with a mod. I'm not talking about every little thing. I'm talking about the big things. When it is pretty obvious to all but the most stubborn that what is going on is a true problem.
I am trying to shy away from using people as examples because I didn't want to single anyone out. I'm trying very hard to stick to that. That is why I did this as a PM all and a post so that everyone could read it. I have no problem discussing specifics with people, but I don't feel that having a discussion like that in public is fair. Throwing people under the bus, as they call it, isn't something I'm going to do.
I could have very easily just went ahead and handled this via scathing PM's to people. That was my first plan. I could just as easily sat down and wrote out several PM's to the people who have really pushed the limits of acceptability lately, and been done with it. Instead, I pm'd every single person on the board, and wrote a very generalized, non finger pointing post about it, in an effort keep people from being angry that "that mod" is out to get them.
I'm not out to get anyone. If I were, I would have acted on that the minute Setsuro made me an admin and just started dropping "Ban Hammers".
That's not my thing.
I want to make this community better. Sadly, to make a community better, you do at times need to institute tighter rules about thigns. As communities grow, and more people get involved, and you have more people using a forum, the rules get progressively tighter.
It isn't because mods want you to have less fun. It's because their job has gotten harder because there are more people around, more threads to manage, more people PMing them, more people who bring up potential issues to them. What was once a quick and easy thing, quickly becomes more than that. When I was a player, I got a decent amount of PM's, mostly about RP stuff. When I became a 2 star mod, There was a few more PM's mixed in, the extra stuff about moddy stuff. Now that I'm an admin, I have to regularly clean out my PM inbox because it gets too big to manage efficiently. As I write this post right now, I have 9 unread PM's from just this morning, 164 read messages, 12 pending PM's in my outbox that people haven't read.
Guess how many of those are about RP? about 1/3.
Now, Don't get me wrong, I love being an admin. I love helping the community. I love people pm'ing me, and asking me questions. Don't stop. But please understand, I'm not trying to take the fun out of the boards, or crack down like this is a police state.
I'm just trying to make sure that as more and more people join this forum, there is a clear and concise understanding of what is expected of people.
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Post by Hida Joji on Oct 11, 2011 9:12:18 GMT -5
Thx for the fast reply.
Good to know. Wouldn't make sense any other way.
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Kitsuki Yuushahime
Dragon Clan
This person sometimes posts things that are tl;dr
Courtier Magistrate Ambassador Daimyo
Posts: 1,140
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Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Oct 11, 2011 9:44:09 GMT -5
You can single me out if you want Shoju. I received a warning once. Looking back on it I agree that my comments were out of line. However, the staff response was fair and proportionate - no warning as it was just a heated discussion and both I and the other got told on in that thread for it. It doesn't mean I like the guy but I do like the mods and can recognise when I am just worked up rather than being rational.
Personally I would have gone with the direct pms to members who I saw as skirting/breaking the rules or otherwise going too far. I admire your attempt to do things in a more general and less accusatory manner.
Also, I think you are getting way too many PMs as an admin here. I bet the others get the same kind of numbers. In my mind that is ridiculous. If the pms are questions or queries, that is fine. If they are all quibbles about posts and complaints that would drive me mad. Are you sure you're okay with that?!
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Post by Shoju on Oct 11, 2011 9:51:53 GMT -5
No, it's not all problem Pm's.
I get Pm's about questions on where to find things. I get Pm's about if people need to do things before they can post or RP. I get PM's about if people are "doin' it right" I get PM's about problems I get PM's about RP. I get PM's about Facebook Game questions. I get PM's about being a Spider.
It's not all bad. But, as I've become a more visible person, with more stars under my name the number of Pm's that I get has increased.
I welcome it. I honestly do. If it were all PM's about problems, no. i would have a problem with it. Because the first thing I ask everyone who pm's me about a problem, is if they have talked to a 2 star mod.
Honestly, the PM's about problems are a small sample. mostly its people pming me questions, and a lot of them are newer-ish people, and I'm ok with that. that's what I'm here for. Very rarely do my Pm's turn into more than 1-2 reply conversation, unless it is rp based.
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Kitsuki Yuushahime
Dragon Clan
This person sometimes posts things that are tl;dr
Courtier Magistrate Ambassador Daimyo
Posts: 1,140
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Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Oct 11, 2011 9:54:16 GMT -5
Nah, that is fine then as you say. It's nice to receive queries as it shows interest, enthusiasm and a desire to learn from new people here (and perhaps even older members). That can only be a good thing.
Carry on XD
I may start calling you "the most popular Spider" or some such now though.
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Daigotsu Daisuke
Spider Clan
Former Lion Bushi - Newly Initiated Maho Tsukai
Posts: 330
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Post by Daigotsu Daisuke on Oct 11, 2011 10:33:34 GMT -5
I just try to live by the rule of "dont be a dick". When I feel that my words or actions in an rp might be construed as such i try to leave an ooc message stating my intentions. Btw i think the mods and admins are doing a great job ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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Post by Hida Joji on Oct 11, 2011 10:40:03 GMT -5
... Btw i think the mods and admins are doing a great job ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) ... After playing L5R from 1st edition up to 3rd edition as a GM and playing the CCG up to Samurai edition. Let me say this is a GREAT L5R facebook game. the only one I play after droping all the ones from a Zevil company I wont name ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) . This game and the forum are 1 IMO and so far I'm loving it. So thx to all responsible for the facebook+forum effort! Edit: Added L5R to "Great facebook game"
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