Following Champions

[sprinkles]

This is in no way meant to start a big fight so please check any offense at the door. I just curious of something. Why do some players follow what their clan champion says without question? This is just a game and the champions are just regular players like everyone else. Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone but some players seem to think "it's honorable" to obey another completely random stranger on the internet. This makes no sense to me. (That maybe why I chose Spider.) Just curious if anyone can help me understand their point of view. Thanks!

[Suzume Satoru]

Its simply roleplaying within the parameters of the game.

Within the construct of the game, if a player's character achieves the role of champion, than it would be natural for another player's character of that clan to follow thier champion.

The same thing would apply if the champion were a NPC penned by Jay. It would still be natural for a player character of the same clan to follow the champion.

That's it. It doesn't matter that the Champion is charactered by another player. They're the champion, and if you want to roleplay in this game, within the parameters of the game, then acknowledge the champion in some way- either by following them or disobeying them (that in most cases the honor premise of the game generally requires following the champion is another thing). You don't simply ignore it all together, unless you just choose not to roleplay.

[Shoju]

I would wager a guess that it is because in a lot of clans, the clan champion is voted to be such, and it fits with the Rp, it fits with the setting, and most of the champions are pretty knowledgable people.

I enjoy seeing the people who truly work hard to put forth the effort that they are part of a clan that has a 'structure'. I think it helps add to the ambiance and story.

[Akodo Tomatsu]

Well I'll weigh in from one of those clans that does appear to have everyone follow their champion. What you don't see going on in the background is I go to very long lengths to hear everyone in my clan out and make sure people have a voice before we move on to making IC statements and such. Luckily I've been blessed with a core of like-minded players so we've never had a fight, but if we had a discussion and they honestly wanted to go in a different direction, then so be it, at the end of the day, I'm just a man as well.

[sprinkles]

I understand "in character" agreeing with a champion. I just don't "out of character". Like Satoru said if you have the same goals then it makes sense. I just don't get doing something you don't want to out of "loyalty". When that loyalty isn't to a real clan champion but someone sitting at a keyboard you never met before.
I guess to me playing this game is about making a great story. I always seek that out. I don't see how a player can create a great story by just doing what they are told. I guess it comes down to different goals maybe. I'm just not really getting it.

[Akodo Tomatsu]

Maybe their great story is doing what their champion asks, even if they disagree with those actions, the very heart of Chugo?

[Asahina Yukihime]

Hum... part of the fun in a game is to experience a setting of conditions different from the one where I live in RL.
Some people say they like to RP because they can do whatever they want.
Experiencing restrictions and a insane amount of obedience is also challenging (may be even more than playing the "I do all I want" style).

I can do all I want when playing D&D Sometimes you have to blindly follow someone (may be army is a little like this) you don't know why are you doing this or that and just have to hold to your believes that it is for good.
It's a different paradigm, and that's why I think it's fun.

Mostly I would do what the champion want's me to do just to keep the setting as the setting should be. I don't want to be the one messing the Empire and the Celestial Order

But OOC the Champion can be kinda democratic, listen to her followers and decide towards want they want, so she (champion) can be respected and have "happy" loyal followers. And everything looks perfect.

[Bayushi Hiromitsu]

Good question! o.o

[Kitsuki Yuushahime]

Oct 19, 2011 8:41:32 GMT -5 @sprinkles said:

I guess to me playing this game is about making a great story. I always seek that out. I don't see how a player can create a great story by just doing what they are told. I guess it comes down to different goals maybe. I'm just not really getting it.

It is certainly a limitation. D&D, exalted, world of darkness and pretty much every single other RPG game can have a great story from the character perspective much easier. L5R has Lords and orders. If a GM uses these properly they can can control the game quite easily, perhaps even railroad the PCs unless the PCs really wish to rebel or become ronin. It therefore relies on the GM to craft the storyline a lot more than other games do. In D&D the PCs can usually choose whether to fight or run, what dungeon to enter, etc. In L5R, if you Lord says "go into that dungeon and into the room with the scary monster and kill it" then you do that or he will order you to seppuku or otherwise punish you.

However, it is only a limitation. PCs can have great storylines still, but they must be within these parameters. As has been suggested, having doubts about an order or one's Lord, sturggling to stay honourable, rebelling or becoming ronin, tragically disobeying to make a point, etc. These are all great storylines still. The player generally has less control over the course of the story though. Unless they are a wandering Emerald Magistrate or a Daimyo or the like.

A player can create a great story by just doing what they are told. I think you see this as "the end of the journey is what is important/defines the story". So, to you, doing what you were told is the end of the story and it is a very simple one. Perhaps dull. To others "the journey itself is the story". What they felt about what they were told to do, how they went about it, any doubts they had and how those manifested, how things played out in the end, the reaction of their Lord, etc.

All of these things are still story. Just because you do what you are told does not mean the story is not great. You still choose how you interpret what you are told to do and how you feel about it as well as how you adapt to anything that changes the situation.

So basically it is a limitation but one most experienced L5R players are well aware of and happy to work within. I agree it is very different to other RPGs but I think that is the charm of Rokugan myself. For those on the forum here that listen to their daimyo/champions/whatever - I think it is out of respect for the charm of that limitation, as well as because most of those ranking players were elected and have some justification for their rule apart from just having the most glory or whatever. Many also do discuss things and listen to their clan and involve themselves in RP. That is infectious and makes others want to RP as well. So them doing X makes others want to be involved in X. Following one's Lord therefore becomes a normal step to involving oneself in X to have fun. X becomes the storyline, not that one's Lord told you to do X. Especially when ooc you all mostly agreed X was a good idea!

[Akodo Tsanuri]

note: funny thing, nearly all talking were daimyo or/and champions

looks like all was said. just to add a few words from a point of view of one low-rank obedient character.


privatelly I obey champion's decision cause:

IC/OOC:
1. it's L5R. obeying your lord is essence of playing in this system. I can't imagine situation where half of clan decide to disobey their champion. even if you disagree you hide it and do what you were ordered or commit seppuku to show your disagreement. a few would think about becoming ronin, but really few

2. I always imagine Lions as very united (maybe accept of Akodo-Matsu conflict in the end of 1st ed). we are all brothers and sisters, trained to trust each other and so on. I can't imagine all this shattered. plus Lions mostly are soldiers, they do what they are ordered rather then think about all possibiliteis, pros and cons of each decision and so on.

OOC:
3. I started playing on forum during the most important vote - which side to choose. because it was easier to find myself in here with that decision.

4. while war started I didn't really care on which side to be, as I didn't know who was fighting and why. so following champion seemed like best choice.

5. champions are mostly people very involved in game. yeah, they are just another players but they probably know more about the world then I and they won the vote, so other players must trust them. so I take their opinions into consideration more than some other random guys.

6. as Tomatsu said, nearly every decision what to do during war is voted over on clan forum and then we follow majority. we have great players that even if don't agree with the vote results, follow them, because that was clan decision and great champion for allowing us to decide rather than deciding on his own.

[Shoju]

I don't know that I would call myself a "champion" But I guess that would be covered by the nearly all. I'm not even a Daimyo. I'm just a crazy guy.

[Akodo Tsanuri]

I said "nearly all", not "all" Shoju-sama

[Shoju]

That's what I said

[Akodo Tsanuri]

right
though when writing I was thinking about you as a champion/daimyo/other-important-person too

[Takezo]

What's this about obeying clan champions?