Kitsuki Yuushahime
Dragon Clan
This person sometimes posts things that are tl;dr
Courtier Magistrate Ambassador Daimyo
Posts: 1,140
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Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Oct 20, 2011 0:29:53 GMT -5
Ah well, I thought you didn't understand us and were asking to understand so perhaps talking about those that understand with the intention of getting you to understand when we cannot be understood by one who does not understand was not understandable. Understand?
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Post by sprinkles on Oct 20, 2011 0:33:19 GMT -5
Yuusha you never answered the question that was asked. Thank you for trying.
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Kitsuki Yuushahime
Dragon Clan
This person sometimes posts things that are tl;dr
Courtier Magistrate Ambassador Daimyo
Posts: 1,140
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Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Oct 20, 2011 1:22:27 GMT -5
In either of my earlier posts? To be serious, my apologies if I misunderstood your question. If you could rephrase it I may have another go but it sounds like Eri and others have helped shed some insight already?
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Post by sprinkles on Oct 20, 2011 1:31:20 GMT -5
In a out of character ordeal such as the private forums why do some players support their champion just because they are the champion? In character I get it completely. But when it's out of character the champion is just another person, no more or less valuable than anyone else. Some people have shed some light on this but I'd love to hear more. I'm truly trying to understand this because it makes absolutely no sense to me. Even when I disagree with things I like to at least understand the other side but this is one that I have yet to understand as a player.
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Kitsuki Yuushahime
Dragon Clan
This person sometimes posts things that are tl;dr
Courtier Magistrate Ambassador Daimyo
Posts: 1,140
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Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Oct 20, 2011 1:44:27 GMT -5
In a out of character ordeal such as the private forums why do some players support their champion just because they are the champion? In character I get it completely. But when it's out of character the champion is just another person, no more or less valuable than anyone else. Some people have shed some light on this but I'd love to hear more. I'm truly trying to understand this because it makes absolutely no sense to me. Even when I disagree with things I like to at least understand the other side but this is one that I have yet to understand as a player. Okay, from an ooc perspective - many support them as they voted the person into the position. Some just agreed with a decision. Others join and accept the status quo. In effect, they all value that player more than others though and agree with their PC leading the PC Clan so ooc that respect materialises itself as more willingness to agree with that player's decisions, especially if they make sense or are well explained. Additionally, the player is usually very active, roleplays with others in their Clan and communicates with those forum players a good deal. In effect, even if not friends, the players get along well ooc. They are therefore more likely to support that champion. Group dynamics. Another reason is possibly peer pressure. When everyone else listens to that player then you listen to them more too less you appear to be the odd one out. Another reason could be the increased respect afforded to many of the champions as they are also staff on the boards. Another reason could be the fact that many of the champions and daimyo message players to talk about decisions. They also make threads to listen to advise ooc and ic. This means people get a say and can see what others are saying. When a democratic discussion takes place or even when one at least feels they have had a chance to speak and be heard, then they are more willing to accept the group result even if it is something they spoke against. Usually, due to knowing most of the other forum members from one's clan, the champion's opinion will mirror that of the majority and they can usually count on themselves and their supporters to persuade others to their side (whether they were neutral/undecided or originally against it). Thus I suppose there is grouping ooc. Almost like cliques though not quite so elitist I hope. At the least they can be said to be influential though. Additionally, if one wishes to rp here, then seeming to be completely against one's lord and the majority of one's clan seems very peculiar and your PC seems like a trouble maker. It therefore makes sense to agree IC, even if your PC has reservations. This means you are perhaps more likely to agree ooc as the divide between IC and OOC is often blurred in informal boards like this, particuarly in private areas. I can only say for certain with the Dragon area, but we have had long debates on previous votes and issues (like the trade area) and some of these have even become quite heated. Some of these were done ooc, many were done ic. Either way, when it appeared a consensus or some compromise had been reached, we usually all agreed to do our best to follow this. Usually 2 or 3 would openly say they would not and would disregard the decision (and these were often players who had followed other group decisions. The Dragon are quite tolerant of disagreement and individual action it seems) but the majority would be on board. Sometimes the clan champion even changed their opinion based on what a minority were asking if they were persuasive enough. That has happened at least once with the Dragon and it was quite interesting (again, river trade). I suppose that means that sometimes it is less about the champion telling others what to do ooc and more about the champion listening to others ooc and then forming a common general approach that others ooc agree with - and that sometimes this isn't the approach the champion originally wished for. Does that address your question better sprinkles? ^_^
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Post by sprinkles on Oct 20, 2011 1:51:03 GMT -5
Yes it does. Thank you very much. That is actually quite helpful.
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Kitsuki Yuushahime
Dragon Clan
This person sometimes posts things that are tl;dr
Courtier Magistrate Ambassador Daimyo
Posts: 1,140
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Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Oct 20, 2011 2:01:43 GMT -5
Please know that in general I think that the Champions have claimed their positions legitimately on the original assumption that voting into positions or taking them due to being the highest glory X was the rule.
That legitimacy provides a good justification for listening to champions too. I am glad my post was a little helpful XD
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Post by Soshi Kiso on Oct 20, 2011 6:11:15 GMT -5
Long live Senshi-sama!!! *just thought I'd throw this in here ;P*
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Akodo Taiyo
Lion Clan
Lion Clan Hero ? Samurai ? Tactican ? Shireikan ? Honorable ? Loyal
Posts: 196
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Post by Akodo Taiyo on Oct 20, 2011 7:00:01 GMT -5
Tsi Eri understood what I was saying. In regards of people saying honor blah blah blah. If your clan champ said we should all get tainted and join the Spider I think some people might have some issues. But the lion attacking their lord (for example) is allowed ever though it's one of the most dishonorable and uncharacteristic actions they could do? I have no problem with votes and such but there are players who vote the way their champion does just because they are the champion. I would think that they would think about what they want then vote that way then if the vote did not go their way obey honorably. That's the difference of ooc and ic. Ok, I understand what you're getting at now. It's an interesting question, since I really haven't seen this happen in the game. Of course, I'm not all up in everyone's private boards, so I don't really know what happens there. I can tell you about the Lion though. None of us who are active on the boards just follow our champ. We discuss all votes OOC in our private forums, conduct a poll of our own members, and when a majority is reached we "tend" to vote in the in game actions according to the outcome of our own forum poll. I say tend, because it just sort of happens on its own. There's no clan rule that says we have to. What you may see on the outside is a bunch of people blindly following some random dude who happens to be a champ, but what is really going on is that the Lion approach these decisions very democratically, because we want to be a united power house that can change the course of action in the FB game. If that means that our own, personal, OOC desires get put aside (which happens to me on most votes, btw...I am good at being the odd man out), then so be it. It's worth it in the long run to make those small sacrifices in order to be part of a clan that has almost no infighting or dissent, and can achieve so much together. I feel extremely fortunate to be part of such a group. Can I get a group hug please? another group hug - because we do this also united ;D Okay, now I know you weren't specifically referring to the Lion with your intitial questions, so maybe my answer doesn't have much direct bearing...or maybe it does. I'll leave it to you to decide. If I've missed the point yet again...well please have at me, and I'll try to catch up
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Akodo Tomatsu
Lion Clan Mod
The Shining Lion
Lion Clan Champion?Samurai?Tactician?Loyal?Paragon of Sincerity?Defender of the Empire
Posts: 1,042
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Post by Akodo Tomatsu on Oct 20, 2011 7:12:20 GMT -5
/group hug!
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Matsu Kaito
Lion Clan
Lion Clan * Samurai * Kensai * Duelist * Paragon
Posts: 231
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Post by Matsu Kaito on Oct 20, 2011 11:42:23 GMT -5
another group hug - because we do this also united ;D
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Bayushi Senshi
Scorpion Clan
Scorpion Clan * Clan Champion * Samurai * Kensai * Experienced * Loyal * Unique
Posts: 1,891
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Post by Bayushi Senshi on Oct 20, 2011 13:02:52 GMT -5
I do not feel it prudent really to throw out the setting as a reason for doing as the champion does for honor. Because of the culture of the game it can carry over to ooc, not just ic. To throw out those reasons seems odd. I'll give an example. If in the game Mass Effect, Tomatsu is my ooc boss and told me to kill person "x" in a renegade action, I would make that choice myself. I don't need to listen to him. But if I am a rank and file Lion playing L5R and Tomatsu told me to vote a certain way ooc, I'd do it. Why? because it is the culture of the game. Not the IC culture, the games culture.
I have deliberately lost games of L5R ccg by saying the other person is the winner when I mess up. Example, if I draw to many cards in magic, I point it out, say I'm sorry and reshuffle. in L5R if I draw to many cards I profess that I have done something dishonorable, and cede the game to my opponent on the grounds that I have committed a dishonorable act. This is how the culture of the game effects some peoples' choices ooc.
That said, the reason we scorpion work together is because we agreed to wanting to have a specific style of decision making. I was actually against it for some time, I wanted a purely democratic system. We decided to have an elected champion who would listen to what his clan mates had to say about situations, then make a decision. So we can all make a unified front and be a clicking powerhouse in the game. There have really only been about 2 or 3 problems with this method in the course of almost a year.
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Daigotsu Daisuke
Spider Clan
Former Lion Bushi - Newly Initiated Maho Tsukai
Posts: 330
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Post by Daigotsu Daisuke on Oct 20, 2011 13:38:05 GMT -5
When EE first started at least in the lion clan we originally decided to deem the player in our clan with the most glory as our champion. What occured then was that a player war for glory continually and eventually tomatsu was surpassed by some guy or another. While in that tumultuous time of EE history, Tomatsu understood that even though IC he was our clan champion he as a player would not get in the way of our out of character wishes. When winter court occured and Jin desired to see the crane punished for the death of a few lion samurai I IC asked tomatsu if he desired me to seppeku (i feel that if you're going to do something IC you should do it OC as well - i like to roleplay which thankfully he said no, but his actions then showed me that not only did he care about rping the setting but that he also cared about the story i wanted to create for my own character. He had his own in mind for his character but he wouldn't impede mine and in fact would help mine along actually. When it comes to unity i can't speak for the other clans,but when a major decision comes to the board we as players dont think of ourselves as only individuals (well we do but our characters group identity as a lion is very important to us - call it rp call it setting, whatever - the main point is that we do our best to refer to this identity often.) We call each other brother and sister often to establish the fact that not only do we respect each others opinion but that we are also part of one clan. I think its very inherent in the way the lion are set up in the setting and i think its players who are naturally interested in a group identity and stories that rely on that who naturally gravitate towards the lion. When it came to how the lion decided to "betray" the hantei and the clan joined the side of toturi, i think you are seeing this entirely in the wrong light. From the view point of a toturi-ist/lion we are doing exactly what is asked of our clan. If you look for it, through out the l5r setting there is a major theme that is continually brought up about choice. Either one goes with their own desires or their desires line up with those of the empire/emperor. If your character chooses the latter then you have another conflict another theme that you as a player must face, one that exists inherently in the setting and crops up again and again. Do you owe your duty to the emperor or to the empire? In the setting the lion have many times openly defied what they thought were unjust emperors. During the gozoku era, the lion openly trained Yoguzohime to resist the emperor. In that capacity they chose what they was best for the empire over what they thought was best for the current living emperor. It again happens in the clan war era and again during the era of the 4 winds. It seems that as i stated earlier we lion have a group identity. Part of our group identity has become the choice of empire over emperor and that the interests of both are at times seperate. In this instance after speaking about it out of character most of us in the lion reached the consensus that we felt Naseru was acting only in his interests and not in the interests of the Empire. As such we defied him and chose his brother to be successor. I dont always blindly follow tomatsu's decisions, we in the lion argue about things in our player forum from time to time but we all wish to see what is best for our clan. And the number one thing that destroys a clan you might ask? Division. (if you think im off base here go ahead and argue i do like knowing other observations and interpretations)
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Post by sprinkles on Oct 20, 2011 22:44:25 GMT -5
These are all helpful and I thank everyone. I know some of what happens in the private forums and that is why I asked this question. While I would have liked to see an answer from someone who does blinding follow their champion I think that was a stretch to begin with. I think I am beginning to see that the setting and the approach players take influence how they play. I view this as a game and so the "point" is to have fun. Others may view the setting and their actions as the fun part; immersion ect. This seems to make sense now. Once again thank you all.
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Post by Akodo Tsanuri on Oct 20, 2011 23:14:44 GMT -5
only one thing: I don't know how are the others, but I'm having losts of fun the way I play, following (better or worse) clan
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