4/16/2012: Castle of the Swift Sword

[Enishi]

Yes, that's why the part you quote was an example and not a complain. In my book, a solution that lets characters from a whole 4 (!) schools in the game shape the flow of battle is not something I'm interested in. That's 4 out of 62!

Which relates nicely to my first point which you chose to ignore Skills are not dealt among schools with balance in mind. They're based on a gaming environment where characters rarely if ever get into a battle (L5R RPG, that game where you're not playing armies of samurai).
The example of Battle really sticks out, but I think it's a broader concern.

[Hida Joji]

As long as skill contests are "make this your almost solo investment" it's not a good idea IMO.

Example:
This battle Akodo "The General" Keisuke did 1835 (from memory) on his Winter Warfare...

Dice roll: 101 (Perfect Score+1, made up)
Items: 100 ( Made up but prolly near the mark)
Skill: 1634 or 817 skill points invested.

He's lvl275 (from memory but close enought) * 4 = 1100 skill points

so 74% of the skill points invested... rest used to be able to move around I guess... Ouch.

He has no way to participate in any conetst except battle and he'll probably win any battle one. Boring.

Make contests with more skills and average them.

Example: (Battle + Survival + Horsemanship)/3

Akodo Battle-boy: Battle 100, Survival 3, Horsemanship 20 = 41+Roll+Gear
Mantis Pirate: Battle 30, Survival 50, Horsemanship 40 = 40+Roll+Gear
Utaku Itsthattimeofthemonth: Battle 41, Survival 5, Horsemanship 100 = 48ish+Roll+Gear

Instead of Akodo winning all battle contests, Mantis the Survival ones and Utaku the Horsemanship ones they can all the participate and have a shot at winning.

[Shoju]

Or, just make contests out of lesser used skills, and force people to spend points, so that they can't "pool" to win.

Hunting. Who has a high hunting skill?
Or Art? Or Intimidation? Or Seduction?

As long as we stick with Battle, Spellcraft, Investigation, Courtier, You are going to have people building their characters for a single skill.

I'll be honest. I gave up on Spellcraft. After the way White orchid played out, It infuriated me. I had built my character wrong from the get go, and had no realistic chance to win. So I hit 1k Spellcraft natural, and I'm now working on other skills.

I have 2 other skills at natural 100's, and I'm working on the next one. After that, I will see what I am going to do.


The competitions are cool. I like them. But they punish the "old" characters who were made before the first contests, who spent points, just as much as the punish those people who try to evenly distribute their points.

[quarim]

I agree that all skills should be used for a variety of things. And higher requirements put on them. And as I said using multiple Winter Warfare actions at battles would be fun. Example: have one battle where Battle, Spellcraft, Kyujitsu, Kenjitsu are all used as skill competitions and even Horsemanship and Sailing.

[Shagi the Mad]

There is a place for the single skill contest. But I think more stuff like the Topaz Championship would be fun. (for those who weren't here:10 skill contests in 10 days; winner was the person with most top 10 finishes with Iaijutsu as tiebreaker)

Or maybe have multiple contests with the winner being the best "low score."

[Akodo Kotaro]

I am not sure whether it would have favored either side, but being able to use all of my available forces, Heavy Infantry, Light Infantry, Elite Archers, etc. in this battle might have made a difference too, instead I had to keep leaving the battle to go farm new Archers and Light Cavalry and, at first, Medium Infantry. Throwing some of my Berserker Followers into the fight might have been helpful, or using some of my Kaiu Siege Engines or Heavy Cavalry or Minor Shugenja or the thousands of Light Infantry I have or any of the myriad of other troops could have perhaps changed the course of this battle.

[Tamori Manji]

I agree with Enishi and I think that the ideas mentioned by Shoju, quarim and Shagi are all good. It would be interesting to see a change of pace regarding skill challenges.

Joji, well, it takes a Kitsuki to unmask a Scorpion, sure. But who better than a thief to know where the thieves gather? The Clan is responsible for the behaviour of its members? Yes, to a certain degree, but its not hard to circumvent that (banishment for those who are disloyal and such, as you've mentioned). About the loyalty thing, I think that the loyalty of a samurai is, first and foremost, to the Emperor (and because of that I can justify samurai abandoning their Clans to follow the Emperor. I would argue in favor of the "true Emperor" but since Kaneka has declared himself Emperor, I'll concede that this is temporarily valid for him too) and I see the Clan Champion more as an icon, an example, than a real leadership figure with powers to decide the fate of the whole Clan (for that we have the family daimyo. Which is why the Clan Champion is, usually, the daimyo of the main family of a Clan).

PS.: Just saw Kotaro's post and I must say that I completely agree. Having more varied war actions would take the "pressure" off farming a single set of items and would be largely more interesting. It would also mean more work to Jay though.

[Hida Joji]

Well,

The whole L5R Lore and story hinges upon ppl not agreeing on what loyalty is the most important...

Clan > Emperor or Emperor > Clan ? Champion > Clan Daymio > Emperor or Emperor > Clan Champion ?

When push comes to shove Rokugan doesn't have a unified answer... and that is a GOOD THING!

[Akodo Kenzo]

Apr 17, 2012 4:56:39 GMT -5 Bayushi Hiryu said:

As a side note, I believe this battle also showed that the full dedication of a lot of players to their side can overcome a slight disadvantage in the number and synergy of actions offered (and if this disadvantage had been so big as to make the battle hopeless, then I believe this battle wouldn't have needed to take place anyway).

Building up an insurmountable lead over the four months that your side possessed an incredible array of advantages doesn't count as "overcoming" anything. The lead was always yours by a heavy margin, eroding only marginally in the last stages of the fight. If anything, this battle shows that the full dedication of a lot of players with the support of a moderate, late-game synergy advantage can't overcome the sheer weight of one unbalanced action that's been knowingly allowed to persist for months. Especially when votes are arbitrarily deducted on top of that.

Apr 17, 2012 5:46:00 GMT -5 Tamori Manji said:

And I can't understand how some people can still make light of this truly brilliant feat achieved by the Dragons, Scorpions and everyone on the Hantei side (the Badger and Ronin support have really surprised me. Ours was a memorable victory). I've been clicking on this blasted battle EVERY SINGLE DAY for the last six months and I take personal offense to that

You guys aren't the only ones who put in a heavy effort here. There are many Lion who have been heavily involved with this battle from the word go. I kept my fate pool from capping almost every day from the moment this battle started, even phase 1 when some of you seem to think we just weren't paying attention. Not perfectly, no, but that would have required some measure of automation and I'm no cheating botter. Despite that, though, it was never enough. The momentum was always in Hantei favor for reasons that we all know. So when I come in here and listen to people bemoaning why we can't just applaud you for your victory when so many are willing to dismiss our own efforts entirely, I take personal offense to that too. The constant stream of "KILL THE LION" vitriol only makes it harder to stomach.

By all means, pat yourselves on the backs. You gathered a lot of clicks. But don't go laboring under the illusion that this is some kind of grand coup that only came about because of some kind of heroic dedication. You had help, a lot of it. And certainly don't chastise me for continuing to point it out instead of just rolling over and taking it.

[Hitsuzu]

Well, I'm going ronin.

Now it will be more of a Kaelung's situation for my ise zumi character.

Then everyone to Kaneka's court! The first I overhear searching for an "honorable ending" will surely met my fist!

[Shoju]

This is your administrator speaking

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Kenzo, I would caution you to tread lightly where you are going. You can be unhappy with how it turned out, but further Accusations of Bias will not be tolerated.

I've tired of the public (and private) bashing of Jay. Accusing him of bad behavior, having a bias, or some other underhanded act is stepping out of line, in direct violation of the rules. Specifically #1, 2, 3, 11.

I've let people have some leeway on the rules, because I understand that tensions run high around this civil war. But this is where I'm going to draw the line. The last few weeks has really seen an increase in the "Jay-bashing", and I'm putting my foot down. Enough is enough.

You can express your unhappiness. I know that I expressed mine in regards to how the Spider were treated when this civil war started. But there is a difference between expressing your frustration, and accusing someone of a bias, or of bad behavior, or any similar notion.

That is pretty easily defined as a personal attack, and I will not tolerate it.

If anyone has any questions about it, you are more than welcome to discuss it with me via PM's. If you decide to not abide by the rules, There will be consequences.

[Utaku Mai]

I sent Jay a facebook message about the Kaneka's favor thing, and got this in response:

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I realize Kaneka's favor is a fairly rare item, the idea behind this action is that his close confidants are helping to advise him. So it isn't too surprising that this action won't be performed that many times. Possibly it should get mastered after only doing it a few times, admittedly. Thanks again

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It makes me a little sad that the people with the best chance of affecting the vote are the ones who have been around for at least a year (Yobanjin-conflict era) and who still play after all that time. But them's the breaks.

I have six votes. I am pursuing peace whenever I can.

[Akodo Kenzo]

I apologize if my post here came off as a personal attack against Jay, because that's not how I meant it. I don't actually believe there was any malice or bias or anything like that in the design of the battles, though I admit I sometimes lose sight of that when angry. I'll be good.

[Shoju]

It's understandable that people will lose sight of that, and that in the heat of this, not word things well. Trust me. I remember being blindingly furious about things when this all started.

While I mention your name to start my post, DO NOT think that it was solely directed, or as a result of "just" you. There has been a slow buildup of the attitude lately, and with attitudes sour at this point, your post provided an... "intro" into posting it. I have been trying to figure out the best way to approach the topic since it started cropping up.

[Tamori Manji]

Kenzo, just to be perfectly clear, when I use smileys, I'm always joking. So, don't take things too seriously or you may end up with an ulcer