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Post by The Book Keeper on May 16, 2012 18:30:45 GMT -5
or maybe the crab could come to there senses and join the shadowlands
...
or maybe that's the scorpions plans..... it all makes sense now.
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Post by Hida Joji on May 17, 2012 4:19:22 GMT -5
...Let's see, an action that costs an item that currently isn't obtainable vs. an action that costs an item that's sent everytime a crab accepts a gift. Oh yeah, there's a snowballs chance in hell of the scorpion winning that vote. Why even bother putting this action up Jay? I don't think there's a contest there, isn't it a decision for the Crab/Toturi supporters and prep for the Hantei side? Or what am I missing?
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Shagi the Mad
Crane Clan
Fallen Crane * Scout * Mad * Shadowlands * Experienced 4 Hiruma Shagi
Posts: 180
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Post by Shagi the Mad on May 17, 2012 5:39:40 GMT -5
I don't think there's a contest there, isn't it a decision for the Crab/Toturi supporters and prep for the Hantei side? Well, it could be "open the gate" + "request the gates be opened" vs "bar the gate." Which is still unlikely to succeed, but I'd expect this to be skewed against opening. Or it could just be flavour actions.
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Post by Shokuma on May 17, 2012 5:47:24 GMT -5
It should maybe be looked at as a pair of votes - Scorpion's playing nice because they are really aimed at taking on the Shadowlands vs. preping for a battle because their allies are insisting that they deal with the Crab who are an enemy in civil war terms on the one side, and the Crab's decision to trust the Scorpion or not on the other side.
I think that the root of the problem isn't in these four actions alone, but a more general feeling that the Hantei side of the civil war is being required to work harder for no particular reason (and I'm not saying that they are right, as we don't know what bigger plan lies behind it, and we know that Jay tries to be fair). Here's a few examples:
1) Kyuden Hida. 2 actions per faction, of which Toturi supporters get to use easily aquired Crab Favours, while Hantei supporters have to find Lies or Anti-Crab plots
2) Seawatch Castle. Each side has a skirmish option which are directly equivalent, but the Crab also have a Scout action that has no item cost and would likely be added to the total of any clicking war, while the Crane have a recruitment action (that may or may not get added to the total) that costs Favours.
3) Tidal Landbridge/Great Hall of Records. Okay, so the Crab's march is not a new action, so no additional tokens, but of these two "recruitment on the march" actions, both cost Rice and the Toturi one costs 20 fate and 0 koku while the Hantei one costs 19 Fate and 10 koku.
4) Drowned Merchant River/Castle of the Swift Sword. Again on the recruitment type actions, The Dragon's Strength requiring Recruits and Dragon Favours vs. Rally Troops with no item cost.
Add on the lingering disatisfaction that Toturi-supporters are allowed to do all of the actions in the Imperial Court, it means that the Hantei-supporters are generally feeling like they are getting the short end of the stick.
One thing that we should all remember in these discussions on what we are and aren't getting, is that not everyone who plays the game wants to be involved in the civil war and that those who chose to withdraw from the conflicts are getting much less plot and content that either of the warring factions. No matter how bad we feel, there is always someone who's got it worse.
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Post by Hida Joji on May 17, 2012 6:56:22 GMT -5
1) Kyuden Hida. 2 actions per faction, of which Toturi supporters get to use easily aquired Crab Favours, while Hantei supporters have to find Lies or Anti-Crab plots I don't think this is a click war... doesn't sound like it. I think it's a prelude to something and the item choices and random drops are for flavor. Bear in mind that if it is a click war, then "Hantei" side has votes from Toturi supporters with the "Come inside, I never hear of Troy" action... But I don't think it's a contest. Time will tell. 2) Seawatch Castle. Each side has a skirmish option which are directly equivalent, but the Crab also have a Scout action that has no item cost and would likely be added to the total of any clicking war, while the Crane have a recruitment action (that may or may not get added to the total) that costs Favours. Looks odd, feels odd. Once again, the crab have a plan and I don't believe Seawatch is a real target. Regardless, the actions are not balanced within that conflict. We will see the totals and see if it has an impact on the totals. Crab are stretched right now, so balance is a hot topic ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) . 3) Tidal Landbridge/Great Hall of Records. Okay, so the Crab's march is not a new action, so no additional tokens, but of these two "recruitment on the march" actions, both cost Rice and the Toturi one costs 20 fate and 0 koku while the Hantei one costs 19 Fate and 10 koku. Non-issue... crappy actions, crappy drops. Not on any conflict. Flavor only. No more Rice plz! 4) Drowned Merchant River/Castle of the Swift Sword. Again on the recruitment type actions, The Dragon's Strength requiring Recruits and Dragon Favours vs. Rally Troops with no item cost. So true, initially the Toturi side one cost Rallying cries but jay changed it when he was alerted that most ppl had none after the battle ( Can I get a refund for my 30 clicks before action was changed?)... Perhaps it balances out with the other recruit actions? Perhaps, no idea. Do you guys smell Oni on the air? I think it's Oni #5!
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Post by Shoju on May 17, 2012 8:09:07 GMT -5
I think that the root of the problem isn't in these four actions alone, but a more general feeling that the Hantei side of the civil war is being required to work harder for no particular reason (and I'm not saying that they are right, as we don't know what bigger plan lies behind it, and we know that Jay tries to be fair). Here's a few examples: I disagree that the Hantei side has had to work harder. I'm not trying to turn this into a flame war, so please no one make me regret talking about this. If the Hantei side had to work harder, we wouldn't see the Hantei winning, consistently. In terms of this, Someone, please explain to me WHY the Hantei should have as easy of a time in these actions as the Toturi? I'm talking tangible, Game / RP / Lore / Story type reasons on why it would make sense for the Hantei to EASILY persuade the Crab to open their gates to the Scorpion. The SCORPION. The clan known for its duplicity. The clan that is current supporting Hantei, the "other brother" so to speak in the eyes of the Crab. The clan, who is allied with the Dragon, whose armies have devastated, and recently MELTED a Stronghold of one of the Crab's greatest allies in this conflict, the Lion. Why again should this be "fair"? Why should the "voting" actions have similar costs? Because you the players think so? Sometimes, courses of action are tough. When they are continuously, tough, with no break in the degree of hardship, it becomes "unfun". The opposite is also true. If everything is always balanced, it will quickly turn into a game of nothing more than who doesn't let their fate cap, and spends the most time farming for the drops to vote. There is no fun in that. If you step back and look, it should be DAMN HARD for the Scorpion to convince the Crab to open their gates. This is a point where you have to think of this in terms of "rp" and "story" and not in terms of "BUT I WANT TO VOTE AND GET MAH TOKENZ" It happens. Sometimes votes for things aren't going to be fair. Sometimes votes are insurmountable. It's the way it is. This isn't unfair. This isn't biased against the Hantei. This is a hard course of action, that shows just how hard it is in the drops required.
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Asahina Yukihime
Crane Clan
Crane Clan Ikazuchi
* Air * Water * Shugenja * Artisan * Asahina Family Daimyo *
Posts: 750
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Post by Asahina Yukihime on May 17, 2012 9:49:19 GMT -5
If the Hantei side had to work harder, we wouldn't see the Hantei winning, consistently. Sometimes things happens even against the odds. It is not a solely relation between "winning" and "being an easy work". Many other variables are included, commitment, time availability, player base, etc, etc, etc. In other words, "winning" is no proof of "being easy".
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Post by Shokuma on May 17, 2012 10:14:47 GMT -5
I'm not trying to turn this into a flame war, so please no one make me regret talking about this. I'm not wanting to make things heated either, just to discuss why people are arguing things the way they do and how people think things should work. If you step back and look, it should be DAMN HARD for the Scorpion to convince the Crab to open their gates. Absolutely. The Crab may not be masters of the court, but they aren't idiots. But then shouldn't the "easy" option be to opt for the war prep - maybe use up some of those siege engines build out of bits of the Kitsune Mori?
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on May 17, 2012 10:15:48 GMT -5
If the Hantei side had to work harder, we wouldn't see the Hantei winning, consistently. I agree with Shokuma here and I think she explained the whole situation pretty well. About the Hantei side winning, you seem to forget the most simple explanation for it Shoju and I ask that you think about the two most important battles up to now, so that you may understand. First Toshi Ranbo, then CotSS. During Toshi Ranbo we had a lot of Toturi supporters playing the game, among them the Crab (with Setsuro still very active), the whole Lion, great part of the Scorpion (if you remember well, Senshi and his whole crew were Toturi supporters. The only Scorpions, on the forum, whom I remember, that openly supported Hantei were Hiromitsu and Aroru), a good part of the Dragon (the internal forums of the Dragon from that time are marked by discussions regarding the topic), half of the Mantis (which amounts to three players, yeah...), the Monkey (Hirotomo still active) and the Ox (which had players at that time). The general feeling of the forums was much more pro-Toturi than it is now (don't ask me why though, I still can't understand what led people to believe this was a viable idea setting-wise but, since I wasn't here at the time this decision was made, I decided to just go along with it). Now look at our situation during CotSS and you will understand. Not only we had Fire Blossoms, which allowed the Hantei side an edge (it would be silly to deny that since the blossoms were our only viable action there and we had to click on it exhaustively in order to win) but the Hantei side was also more organized and got a huge advantage early on during the battle, one that they almost managed to maintain until the end. The initial vote difference was of 24384 votes and the final difference was of 14952, and that was after Jay set up the Lion with an excellent string of actions plus a contest which favored them. With a difference this huge, I would argue that the pro-Toturi armies should've gotten completely routed but, instead, they got a cheap recruiting action... go figure. The other battles were simply a consequence of CotSS dragging on for so long and the Crane being outside of it for more than two months. It was never a doubt to me that they would win their contests against the Mantis once their "peace agreement" with the Lion was in place. I still think it didn't make any sense, setting-wise, but I have to recognize that it served well the interests of the Crane. This is my honest explanation for the Hantei side to be "winning". I don't expect everyone to agree but this is how I see the events that took place since I joined the forums (and I'm focusing on the forums here, we could have another discussion focusing on the player base too but the conclusions wouldn't be too different), feel free to criticize. If the Hantei side had to work harder, we wouldn't see the Hantei winning, consistently. In terms of this, Someone, please explain to me WHY the Hantei should have as easy of a time in these actions as the Toturi? Please allow me to use exactly the SAME argument: WHY shouldn't the Hantei side have an easier time if they are, as you argue, winning? The SCORPION... [insert whole text here] In general lines, I do agree. And I also understand the point made by Joji about the actions at Kyuden Hida and I think he is correct. Those actions are not a contest, they are, as I see it, a vote for the Crab that the Scorpion got the opportunity to influence. Now, my personal rant (warning, my diplomacy ends in the arguments above, this is what I feel): One of my problems with the actions at Kyuden Hida is that they are not clear and those are our assumptions, it may be what Joji and others pointed out but it easily may not. The other problem I have is that I'm tired of having to work like hell for everything, its as simple as that (easy recruiting actions? easy voting actions? easy victories? feel free to send some my way any time now ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) ). We are winning? sure... it doesn't look like it though and it seems to me that CotSS had no impact whatsoever in the progress of the war besides giving the Lion an opportunity to trash talk the Dragon. I personally think that victory was epic (btw, nice touch on the " MELTED" Shoju, that victory was so cool that I can't stop being proud of it) and I don't see why people (except for the Lions, of course) are so worried about the Lions being burned to death. If they did not want to fight, why not open the gates and give up the castle? This is a war, you corner a Dragon and you get burned, simple as that. Its not a mistake that our House words are Fire and Blood... oops, wrong setting there ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) I won't say that I don't care, its obvious that I do 'cause otherwise I wouldn't be making a huge post about it, but I'm honestly tired. Fought for months at CotSS and, even after such an amazing victory, I see no ending in sight for a war I don't even believe in. I must also add that, although I'm sure as hell am proud of our victory at CotSS, I'm not "happy" about it and I wish there was a viable way for us to finish this war. What annoys me the most is that there isn't and, unless the whole Shadowlands rises up against the Empire, I see no other way for us to unite under the same banner anytime soon again and even so it will be hard (this is from a setting perspective. As a player, I have absolutely nothing against the peace, I just think we need to find a plausible reason for it). I remember when, before CotSS, Tomatsu approached me with an idea for a peace agreement between the Lion and the Dragon and I do wish it had been possible. Unfortunately, for all of us, there can be no true peace while two claimants to the throne remain alive. EDIT: Some bits were a tad confusing, so, I edited them to be clearer and to fix some typos.
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Post by Shoju on May 17, 2012 11:00:53 GMT -5
Sometimes things happens even against the odds. It is not a solely relation between "winning" and "being an easy work". Many other variables are included, commitment, time availability, player base, etc, etc, etc. In other words, "winning" is no proof of "being easy". That is true, winning doesn't mean its easy, but lets be honest, You can't HONESTLY Look at this game, and say that the deck is stacked against you can you?! That is incredibly disingenuous. Both sides are saying "this isn't fair, that isn't fair, and this isn't fair" and on and on and on. I think we've seen that each side has had points, and battles, and votes, and the like that haven't been as "easy" as the other side, or as "fair" as the other side, but it's happening on BOTH SIDES. And yet still, the Hantei side holds an advantage in the "victories" I don't want to hear that it isn't fair. Please allow me to use exactly the SAME argument: WHY shouldn't the Hantei side have an easier time if they are, as you argue, winning? No. This isn't about winning. This is about CONVINCING The crab to open up their doors to the ENEMY. I mean seriously people. The Crab are NOT stupid, and they aren't going to open the door! If anything, in the face of the Kaneka camps losing SO MUCH GROUND, they are going to close them to the Hantei Clans. The idea of "Well we are winning so we should have it easier!" needs to stop. That is ridiculous, and I'm not going to lie, probably the type of attitude that doesn't sit too well with the Toturi Clans. The Hantei clans SHOULD find it difficult for EVERY reason I posted to get the Crab to open those gates to them. If you for some reason think that it should be easy for you, you aren't actually thinking in an L5R story sense. Why does everything have to be laid out? I don't get this? If you are a part of it, then be a part of it. Personally, I don't think that the Dragon, or Anyone else who Isn't Crab or Scorpion should be allowed to click those actions. The Scorpion army is there. The Crab army is inside the gates. I must have missed the part where the Scorpion army contained other clansmen, especially when they set out from Scorpion Lands while CotSS was still in progress. I don't feel like we need every single plan laid out in painstaking detail from the minute something is introduced, especially when you can apply some logical reasoning and draw fairly easy conclusions from it. Seriously? Look at the results of CotSS and tell me that was a "hard" Victory. It was a LANDSLIDE. A walk in the park. The hardest part about it was farming, and not letting your fate cap. The dragon have done their fare share of trash talking too, lets not forget that. And lets not forget that north of the CotSS there is a vote going on, with one of the options being the Death via Seppuku of Kaneka. I think that's a pretty big deal. Don't downplay that war council, just because you aren't gutting more of your enemies in the streets. Well, after talking with Several Lions, and several other Toturi supporters, it is the bravado of the Dragon, and the idea, that somehow, burning a castle to the ground is an acceptable thing to do. Those were Rokugani men and women in that castle. Enemies yes, but they were kinsmen. They weren't gaijin, or senpet, or yodotai, or Oni. They were Rokugani. That's a pretty grim fate to deliver to Rokugani, and then try to write it off as not a big deal. It has some of the Toturi people unhappy with the attitude that the Dragon (in particular) and the Hantei (on the whole) have taken about what happened at CotSS. Think about it this way for a second. If the Spider would have destroyed something like that, would it even be a question as to whether or not it was a serious big deal? People seem to forget that if you are a Hantei, the Toturi side thinks of you as an enemy just the same as the spider, and vice versa. Yeah. They have a right to be a little miffed that the castle got turned into slag, and the "ooh ra!" attitude that has been displayed afterwards. No prayers to the ancestors. No remorse that it came down to this. No respect shown to the dead. To some, it feels like the community has forgotten that this is L5R, a game rooted in honor, and respect. If you don't see an end in sight for this war, you need to open your eyes and look around. I think it's pretty obvious that this war is on the downward trend. You don't call a war council, with an option for death of the "emperor" unless you know that it's not working out. Again. You need to look at the war council from a bigger perspective. The Toturi forces are reeling. If you can't see that this war is winding down, you aren't looking too hard. The Lion is offering little resistance to the Emerald Champion, Kaneka is contemplating the future, The Crab are turtling up. What else do you expect?
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Asahina Yukihime
Crane Clan
Crane Clan Ikazuchi
* Air * Water * Shugenja * Artisan * Asahina Family Daimyo *
Posts: 750
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Post by Asahina Yukihime on May 17, 2012 11:13:35 GMT -5
That is true, winning doesn't mean its easy, but lets be honest, You can't HONESTLY Look at this game, and say that the deck is stacked against you can you?! You sound like if I don't agree with you I'm not being honest. Anyway, if you read again, I'm not saying anything like you suggested (that the game is against anyone, nor I was addressing to the "fairness" of EE). And I won't say. Both sides are saying "this isn't fair, that isn't fair, and this isn't fair" and on and on and on. I think we've seen that each side has had points, and battles, and votes, and the like that haven't been as "easy" as the other side, or as "fair" as the other side, but it's happening on BOTH SIDES. And yet still, the Hantei side holds an advantage in the "victories" I don't want to hear that it isn't fair. Nothing to add after that.
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Post by Shoju on May 17, 2012 11:25:38 GMT -5
You sound like if I don't agree with you I'm not being honest. Anyway, if you read again, I'm not saying anything like you suggested (that the game is against anyone, nor I was addressing to the "fairness" of EE). And I won't say. Maybe honest isn't the right word. I sometimes forget that we aren't all speaking American English. Biased. If someone is trying to say that the civil war is being unfair to one side or the other, they are showing a bias in their thought. I'm sorry if I've offended you. But frankly, I find the notion that the civil war jobs are unfair, especially when the notion now comes from the hantei-supporters, because their items to farm for one thing is hard is really not cool. I find that attitude irritating, and I'm "technically" a Hantei Supporter. I can't even imagine how the Toturi Supporters would think about that, after what they perceived to be great unfairness at CotSS.
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Utaku Mai
Unicorn Clan
*Battle Maiden* *Paragon of Honor* *Goddamn Rockstar*
Posts: 484
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Post by Utaku Mai on May 17, 2012 11:27:17 GMT -5
For the record, now that rallying cries are an easy drop from Seawatch castle actions, I'm fine with making the recruit action at Drowned Merchant require them again. I don't even think they drop recruits consistently (it's been a while, but I think it's just an occasional heavy cav drop, which might not even be that useful anyway). The concern I raised at the time had nothing to do with recruits, and everything to do with the Kaneka's favor drop. Perhaps I shouldn't have concerned myself, but I had no idea which new actions/drops were in the works and how long the vote would last.
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on May 17, 2012 11:48:16 GMT -5
That is true, winning doesn't mean its easy, but lets be honest, You can't HONESTLY Look at this game, and say that the deck is stacked against you can you?! What you seem to refuse to see is that it is not, but that it was (I mean, the proverbial deck). Things are a process and our current conditions differ greatly from our starting ones. It is not about "having it easier" or not, its about having opportunities that reflect our situation in the war. As I've said, I can completely understand the situation at Kyuden Hida but I can't understand why the Crab got a war action that doesn't require items against the Crane at Seawatch or why the Toturi supporters got a recruiting action that does not requite items at the Drowned Merchant River. Why does everything have to be laid out? I don't get this? How can you vote if you don't know what you're voting for? It's as simple as that. We don't need painstaking detail, we need clarity of purpose. Those two things differ greatly. Seriously? Look at the results of CotSS and tell me that was a "hard" Victory. It was a LANDSLIDE. A walk in the park. No offense intended but this shows that you clearly did not fight there. The dragon have done their fare share of trash talking too, lets not forget that. It's funny to me how people easily forget the past. There has always been joking and provoking before, during and after the battles here and I don't know about you but I remember the Crane and the defenders of Toshi Ranbo having a hard time about it back then. Did we cry about it? No, we toughened up and moved on. So, people can trash talk us but we can't be proud of an accomplishment? I can't see how that makes any sense. (...) the idea, that somehow, burning a castle to the ground is an acceptable thing to do. Those were Rokugani men and women in that castle. Enemies yes, but they were kinsmen. They weren't gaijin, or senpet, or yodotai, or Oni. They were Rokugani. That's a pretty grim fate to deliver to Rokugani, and then try to write it off as not a big deal. This leads us to a fundamental question: were they? As in, were they really our kinsmen? Were they still rokugani? It might sound ridiculous at first but think about this within the rokugani mindset. These are people who had it all, who knew the blessings of the Empire, but who still chose to betray the Emperor. How would you deal with such people? Would they not be worse than Yobanjin or Gaijin who never had the blessings of the Heavens to begin with? Going against the Emperor is a betrayal of everything rokugani society stands for in every level imaginable, so, I think its fair to ask "are our opponents still people"? It might sound silly, because we ourselves are not at war with each other, but I think we should try to understand better the situations under which our characters are fighting. If we dismiss philosophical questions like those, we dismiss much of the true drama of being at war and that, in my personal opinion, completely kills the RP that justifies the setting. A valid comparison if we use the current ethic standards of our world would be, what were the americans thinking when they dropped two nukes in Japan? They were other nation but weren't they still human beings? Or, what were the nazis thinking when they rounded up everyone who was different than themselves (negroes, jews, gypsies...), independently of nation, and organized concentration camps? And this is me staying inside the boundaries of WWII simply to use examples that everyone will understand. My points are, war is not pretty, its not supposed to be pleasant or fair and the different sides of a war will, almost always, find means that justify their actions or take actions, however drastic or horrible, that under their mindset is justifiable. And this is not me, naively or provocatively, saying that the Toturi supporters are traitors but that, in their eyes, the Hantei supporters are traitors in every conceivable level too. This is why the "peace agreement" between the Lion and the Crane is so hard for me to understand. Yeah. They have a right to be a little miffed that the castle got turned into slag, and the "ooh ra!" attitude that has been displayed afterwards. No prayers to the ancestors. No remorse that it came down to this. No respect shown to the dead. To some, it feels like the community has forgotten that this is L5R, a game rooted in honor, and respect. This is a lie though. Even though I provoke and question while out of character (and the News is strictly out of character for me), Manji or any other Dragon has done nothing akin to what you say. I even went out of my way to describe my actions during and after CotSS, to dispel such ideas. Anyone who follows my RP (if there is anyone) knows this. I even had an idea for a topic together with Akodo Tsanuri but, unfortunately, she seems to be otherwise occupied. I'll grant your other points though. It's just that I'm tired and its starting to show. But, then again, I think we all are and that's no excuse ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) Still, even with the war moving towards a conclusion, it will take time for us to reach it.
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Utaku Mai
Unicorn Clan
*Battle Maiden* *Paragon of Honor* *Goddamn Rockstar*
Posts: 484
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Post by Utaku Mai on May 17, 2012 12:13:02 GMT -5
If we were playing an L5R game that preceded the clan wars I'd totally be right there with you, Manji, but we're not. The celestial order is in the toilet, and has been for more than a generation previous to the events of this game. The Hantei line is no more. Naseru might have taken the Hantei name but he's still the son of a man who spent a decent portion of his life as a ronin for goodness sakes. This is just barely past the time of mortals like Toturi, Toku, and Yoritomo who pretty much broke all the rules regarding their place in society but still forged a commanding presence within it.
Considering we're just barely past the (IMO ridiculous) 'four winds' era of Rokugan, there is likely some kind of history of many in Rokugan openly campaigning for Kaneka to take the throne and supporting any efforts he had to do that, much like many others would have for Tsudao, Sezaru, and Naseru. Those feelings wouldn't just disappear, and forcing the more classical view of Rokugani structure and society onto it is putting a square peg in a round hole -- it just doesn't work, and won't work until another generation from where the game is now where there will finally be a new celestial mandate to rule.
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