Enishi
Dragon Clan
Ninja * shadow * tattooed * Mad prophet of Nothing
Posts: 254
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Post by Enishi on May 17, 2012 12:23:33 GMT -5
I'd argue that succession wars are something that can be considered, while waging war on a ruling Emperor is still something taboo. Opinions will obviously vary on this, though, or we would not have had this war.
Besides, I don't think the general climate is suited to (interesting) theological debates when I read about "Dragon bravado" after the end of the battle of the Swift Sword. I'm sorry, but I don't see it, and it feels sort of offensive to be called an obnoxious winner here.
For the record, I wasn't going to chime in in this thread since I have no problem with the current actions at Kyuden Hida.
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Utaku Mai
Unicorn Clan
*Battle Maiden* *Paragon of Honor* *Goddamn Rockstar*
Posts: 484
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Post by Utaku Mai on May 17, 2012 12:44:58 GMT -5
I think the dragon should be rightly proud of their victory at CotSS, don't get me wrong, but I can't help feeling like if the Toturi side had managed a win -- a win against what turned out to be considerable odds, I might add -- there would have been all kinds of blowback over how long the battle lasted, how good the Toturi action pool was, how few hanteists had good Battle scores, and so on. People were complaining about it for *weeks* leading up to the end of that battle, so don't think that my thoughts on this aren't coming from nowhere.
So now that people are, once again, finding fault with any apparent advantage the Toturi side might have in some very specific situations, and I can't help feeling like people are just crying wolf. We have very little indication on how these actions will affect battle resolution, or how future battle actions will be set up. So I think everyone can afford to chill out just a little bit and see how things will roll out.
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Post by Shoju on May 17, 2012 12:54:20 GMT -5
What you seem to refuse to see is that it is not, but that it was (I mean, the proverbial deck). Things are a process and our current conditions differ greatly from our starting ones. It is not about "having it easier" or not, its about having opportunities that reflect our situation in the war. As I've said, I can completely understand the situation at Kyuden Hida but I can't understand why the Crab got a war action that doesn't require items against the Crane at Seawatch or why the Toturi supporters got a recruiting action that does not requite items at the Drowned Merchant River. And what you aren't seeing is that the Toturists could turn right around and claim that it wasn't fair that we got something so easy as Fire Blossoms at CotSS. That action single handedly won the battle. You can't deny that. If it was good for us then, then it is good for them now. It's a quid pro quo kind of thing. You read the actions right? You saw them.... How do you NOT know what you are voting for? I emeralded every single action available, except the Winter Warfare. I'm not telling you that you can't be proud of an accomplishment. I'm saying, that I think that the community as a whole has lost something that defines L5R communities. That's my personal opinion. Really? That's the train of thought we're going to go with on this? Simple Answer: According to Bushido? Yes. That, is not even the same as Lion VS Dragon. They weren't Kinsmen. They weren't countrymen. They didn't at one time attend each others celebrations and ceremonies. This is a closer comparison, or even the US Civil War. Look at how reviled The nazi's are for what they did to the people they put in concentration camps. Welcome to the opinion, that the Lion, Crab, and Unicorn have of the Dragon. What you need to understand, and what I think a lot of people miss out on in a forum like this, is that you (manji the "player") and "Manji" the character, while separate "entities" really reflect on each other. So when you, are bold and proud of what the dragon has done, rightly, or wrongly, that reflects on Manji the character. It is one of the inherent flaws of a forum Play by Post system, where there are muddy lines of IC/OC messyness in areas of the board. This is further reinforced, by the attitude that you (Yes. You- Manji) have displayed even in these posts in this thread. You are the proud victor, and I don't blame you for that. But the people on the other side of the war, who are smarting at what they feel were unjust conditions for the contest are now looking at what you say as "bulletin board" material to rile them up. I'm not trying to brow beat people into place. I'm trying to get people to remember that there are people on the other side of this conflict. This is the internet. Both sides need to remember both of those points. I have heard from Lion, who are frustrated with how the Dragon have handled the end of CotSS in places like this Forum section. I have heard from Dragon players, and Crane players, who think that the lion are being oversensitive. Guess what? Both sides are right. Everyone is tired of the civil war, and I think that Jay is doing his best to bring about the end of this war in the best way possible, without just mucking the whole thing right in the trash. Besides, I don't think the general climate is suited to (interesting) theological debates when I read about "Dragon bravado" after the end of the battle of the Swift Sword. I'm sorry, but I don't see it, and it feels sort of offensive to be called an obnoxious winner here. You need to look at the way things have happened since the end of CotSS in respect to this forum. There has been some gloating, there has been some trash talking. Have I told anyone to stop? You are reaching to say that I, or anyone else called it obnoxious. I pointed out the trash talking has gone both ways. I didn't say obnoxious. and it has. It has gone both ways. Both sides have overstepped the limits of what they probably should have "done" with the trash talking, but I've let it go, because I don't want to be heavy handed and telling people that they can't have any trash talking. But I can't continue to get 50+ PMs a week from people talking about how the other side is just not being nice, and not being fair, and rubbing their nose in it. And I can't keep seeing each side complain, whenever there happens to be a new job series that gets introduced into the game that has a slight bias, or edge for the other side of this civil war.
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Enishi
Dragon Clan
Ninja * shadow * tattooed * Mad prophet of Nothing
Posts: 254
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Post by Enishi on May 17, 2012 13:20:46 GMT -5
While we're on perspective, I will humbly suggest everyone look at all comments from the other side, rather than take the most aggressive ones and saying "that's what they are thinking!", and brushing the more moderate ones to the side and saying "that's just some individual who probably didn't mean it anyway. But they're not thinking that way!".
And that's the last of me on this topic since I don't think we'll see eye to eye, and I don't have a problem with that.
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Post by Shoju on May 17, 2012 13:23:16 GMT -5
While we're on perspective, I will humbly suggest everyone look at all comments from the other side, rather than take the most aggressive ones and saying "that's what they are thinking!", and brushing the more moderate ones to the side and saying "that's just some individual who probably didn't mean it anyway. But they're not thinking that way!". And that's the last of me on this topic since I don't think we'll see eye to eye, and I don't have a problem with that. I would love for that to happen. I really would.
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Post by Jay Luo on May 17, 2012 13:23:42 GMT -5
Since people have been asking for clarity on what is happening at Kyuden Hida:
I am hesitant to explain the Scorpion actions in too much detail, because sneakiness, confusion and deception are all part of the Scorpion Clan's bag of tricks. Some of their actions might "help" and some might be meaningless feints. I will say, however, that the Scorpion have had actions contributing to taking Kyuden Hida for months and months, long before their army even left the Scorpion provinces. They play for the long game.
Regarding the Crab actions, it was once suggested on this forum that the Crab might peacefully allow the Scorpion to pass through their provinces and help fight the Shadowlands. These actions test whether the Crab agree. I have assigned +honor to one action and -honor to the other, based on my (admittedly imperfect) understanding of bushido.
Regarding the morality of destroying Castle of the Swift Sword, ["LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT MY CHARACTER" WARNING] in a previous L5R campaign my character liked and respected the Toritaka daimyo, but nevertheless felt it was his duty as a Crane samurai to burn down the Toritaka castle and put its people to the sword, because It Was War. Naturally, not everyone saw it this way.[/WARNING]
Hope that helps.
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Post by Shokuma on May 17, 2012 13:35:46 GMT -5
Thank you for your comments Jay. Just knowing that the Scorpion are playing a much bigger game helps. And I am sorry for adding fuel to the fire. I'd hoped to provoke discussion, not finger pointing and shouting, but as the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions ![:(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/sad.png)
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Post by The Book Keeper on May 17, 2012 14:34:44 GMT -5
Thank you jay for explaining and enlightened us to whats going on.
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on May 17, 2012 15:18:07 GMT -5
Thanks a lot for taking the time to express your opinions Jay. As always, they are not only welcome, but also important ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) Ok, I'll cut things short to avoid the ever increasing post size. Shoju, although I do not disagree with many points that you raise and although the Universal Declaration of Human Rights appeared only after WWII (which might lead us to think about the consequences of complicated wars), I must say that the idea of it was already being discussed since before the French Revolution (an example is the work of Rousseau. It does suffer from mistakes inherent to its time and from the lack of reliable data, but its very pertinent to the discussion) so, yes, the notion of Humanity was not only around but already strong enough for both the nazis and the americans to know very well what they were doing and still choose to do it given the circumstances (Takezo and some others even compared what the Dragon did to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Although I do think that's too far fetched if taken literally, I can see the clear value of such comparison). And if we go to the specifics of japanese warfare you will see that something called jigai existed, which puts the whole notion of honorable warfare in question (how "honorable" can an army be if the threat of rape and pillage is a reality? But Japan is not Rokugan, so we must ask, "is rape dishonorable in a patriarchal society where women are little better than objects?" Such are the problems of raising these comparisons but, nonetheless, I think they can serve a purpose). But, if we are going to discuss warfare and its implications, we should really do it in another place (and I do think we can discuss what both sides of this war would think of the other. I, for one, thought that Akodo Jin's reaction to the end of CotSS was, given the circumstances, very appropriate. Imagine if one of the cornerstones of your homeland was razed by an enemy you thought feeble and unworthy? Imo, its very understandable what happened to his son, Akodo Daisuke). Since it was me the one who started it, I must apologize for creating the discussion in a place where it doesn't really belong. Mai, I know that, theoretically, the Hantei bloodline is over and that the Heavens are no longer directly involved in politics, but we cannot forget that these are events that happened in the last 100 years compared to a thousand year old tradition of seeing the Emperor as the direct representative of Heaven. Traditions such as these do not change or disappear without the reformation of the whole social order of a civilization. Going against the Emperor takes away the sanctity of being an Emperor and it sends the clear message that if one Emperor was dethroned, others can be too because the Heavens have no say in the social organization of human beings (I was going to use the term "mortals" to better express Rokugan's case, but, considering that even the Kami can die, I preferred not to). Enishi, I agree with you.
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Akodo Keisuke
Lion Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Lion Clan Regent ?Samurai ?Daimyo ?First Among Generals ?Tactician ?Commander ?Loyal
Posts: 704
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Post by Akodo Keisuke on May 17, 2012 15:19:48 GMT -5
Regarding the morality of destroying Castle of the Swift Sword, ["LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT MY CHARACTER" WARNING] in a previous L5R campaign my character liked and respected the Toritaka daimyo, but nevertheless felt it was his duty as a Crane samurai to burn down the Toritaka castle and put its people to the sword, because It Was War. Naturally, not everyone saw it this way.[/WARNING] Hope that helps. Thank you Jay this is kind of what I had been thinking, it just has hurt to have lost a home location. The Battle for Kyuden Hida will be interesting, in the Chinese usage of the word.
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Post by Akodo Tsanuri on May 17, 2012 17:29:15 GMT -5
Manji-san, I will start the thread we were talking about, just wanted the duel to be finished. it went a little different then what I thought so I need to adjust my post
about the rest, no comment. I don't really care much. we know how this war will end, or at least have strong presumptions. so fighting with new accusations is just meaningless and tiresome
and I agree that Rokugan, at least Rokugan I know, was lost. I don't know when it happened, but it did
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Shosuro Aroru
Scorpion Clan
Scorpion Clan Ninja * Duelist
Posts: 625
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Post by Shosuro Aroru on May 17, 2012 18:10:25 GMT -5
Since people have been asking for clarity on what is happening at Kyuden Hida: I am hesitant to explain the Scorpion actions in too much detail, because sneakiness, confusion and deception are all part of the Scorpion Clan's bag of tricks. Some of their actions might "help" and some might be meaningless feints. I will say, however, that the Scorpion have had actions contributing to taking Kyuden Hida for months and months, long before their army even left the Scorpion provinces. They play for the long game. ...Unfortunately we the Scorpion players haven't recieved any clarity on this either really. When the people making a "feint" aren't aware of whether it's a feint or not, it's not really effective. ...As for the complaint about the unfairness of the action, I think the idea of talking the crab out is ridiculous to begin with. I don't think that should of been the action choice, but seeing as it is, it's not that lies are hard to get, it's that they're impossible to get. If there's an action that hantei players can do right now that drops lies, please let me know. ...As for the whole COTSS and killing women and children thing. The only people that samurai would care about dying are other samurai. Heimin and Eta wouldn't even raise a blip on the radar. However, I just read Jay's post that the game will most likely be over in a few weeks, so none of this really matters I suppose.
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on May 21, 2012 4:07:45 GMT -5
it's not that lies are hard to get, it's that they're impossible to get. If there's an action that hantei players can do right now that drops lies, please let me know. The following mission can still drop a few of them: * River of Gold - Crew and Provision River Boats (Req; Ship Captain, Sailing 20. Cost; Sailors, Sake) [R] I agree with what you said about heimin and eta not causing concern to most samurai, which is why I've raised the question of how would a samurai really see someone who has betrayed their Lord (in this case, the Emperor(s)). Samurai were trained to kill their Lord's enemies and to lay down their lives for their Lord, I doubt that most samurai would even worry or concern themselves with the killing of "traitors", no matter the situation, after all, their moral compass was, in every aspect, very different from the one we have nowadays. For this we can refer to many historic examples, like the relationship between the bakufu and the "kirishitans" during the 17th century, but, unfortunately, this is a lengthy discussion that would require more time than we now have. about the rest, no comment. I don't really care much. we know how this war will end, or at least have strong presumptions. so fighting with new accusations is just meaningless and tiresome Tsanuri-san, it is not my wish to renew accusations or hostilities but to understand what people think when they guide their characters to do what they do and discuss it. I see that not many people are willing to go this far with their questionings, or see a point in doing it, as made clear by Shoju's dismissive answers, but I still think this kind of discussion might enlighten us, as players and narrators, if we are willing to have it. Unfortunately, as you've pointed out, we are walking towards the end, so, I agree when you say that its pointless to over analyze things now, and creating more "infighting" is far from what I desire. This is certainly a debate I will propose to the players that share the L5R table with me though, as I think its relevant to how we see and interact with the setting.
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Hitsuzu
Dragon Clan
Ronin, Ise Zumi, Bloodspeaker's bane, Friendly Traveller (with Sak
Posts: 52
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Post by Hitsuzu on May 23, 2012 16:02:12 GMT -5
Manji, I think you have a different view on the rokugan setting than me, and apparetnly most of the pro toturi's players: hantei naseru is no emperor. he is not blessed, he is not sanctified, he just crowned himself. Since Hantei XXXIX got replaced by fu leng, the clans are not so quick about accepting everything from the ruler of rokugan... And yes, even if you doubt it, it is very likely for spirits and culture to change radically in a few years if the time is dire enough.
and the clan's war was.
On another note, the ressentment, for my part at least, concerning CoSS is that an army of the Lion, the Unicorn army and a few veteran imperial legion (kaneka has a few faithful in it) vs the Dragon army should have been no battle, but a butchery. The Dragon are just not enough. But That was not Jay's way of seeing it, so I follow what he says and wait to see the outcome.
Concerning Kyuden Hida, I really think there will be battle against the Scorpion, and that it should be difficult for both sides. Maybe the Scorpion are infiltrated by the Spider, making them fight the defenders of Rokugan's mighty wall?
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Post by Bayushi Hiromitsu on May 23, 2012 16:37:06 GMT -5
I'm sorry Hitsuzu-san. Or you are a samurai, or you are not.
I won't meddle anymore, but I think maybe Manji-san understand bushido in the same way I do.
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