Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on May 23, 2012 17:22:13 GMT -5
(...) an army of the Lion, the Unicorn army and a few veteran imperial legion (kaneka has a few faithful in it) vs the Dragon army should have been no battle, but a butchery. Hitsuzu-san, trust me, it was ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) And I agree with Hiromitsu, in this case, spiritual quandaries aside, either you are a samurai or you are not. Be it in western or eastern cultures, traitors were always treated with suspicion and disregard (a very good example for the western feeling about it can be found in Dante Alighieri's Inferno in the Divine Comedy). No offense intended but anyone who goes against the Emperor is no samurai. You may be bushi, you may vest yourselves in values similar to the Rokugani ones (because they were, after all, your values once), but you have betrayed the Empire and everything it stands for, including its people, when you turned your backs to the Emperor. This is why I say that either you go all the way and fight to bring down the Celestial Order (which would be an appropriately dramatic outcome) or you don't rebel at all (good examples would be the French Revolution, the rebellion of the Thirteen Colonies against the Kingdom of Great Britain, the implementation of the Tokugawa bakufu or the Meiji Restoration). Also, if you tell me that the Spirit Realms and the Kami have no more say in the destiny of the Empire and its Emperor I would tell you that the Kolat has long achieved its goal, which isn't true. One bad Emperor, I'll grant you that the situation was dire and the Emperor was the worst possible, in a thousand years does not justify the extinction of the whole Imperial system for no other reason than "I think our Emperor sent someone to kill one of his officers but did not succeed". I really do not understand where you got this notion that we can "choose" our Emperor, this is not a democracy, this is Rokugan. Naseru became the Emperor because, quite frankly, he has the best claim after Sezaru, who gave up his birthright to join the Phoenix Clan. It is unthinkable for samurai in Rokugan, who prize the Celestial Order, to wish the coronation of the son of a geisha. Its the same as bowing down to hinin and I don't think you understand the gravity of such situation in Rokugan. What I mean to say is, such a revolution may be done? Yes, it may. But, as I see it, it must be a revolution that breaks free from custom and norm to establish something "new" or restore something "traditional" that the people yearn for, otherwise it simply won't work. PS.: shame on me for bringing real world politics to a fantasy setting, I know ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) EDIT: I must say though, and this is me as a L5R player speaking, that, from a setting perspective, a conflict like the one we are currently having can be very interesting. I just think that we, as players, need good justifications to do what we do. The clicky game obviously doesn't need justification or explanation, nor does the card game (where the setting exists solely for flavor), but once we cross into the RP territory, I prefer to try finding a logic to the inner workings of a setting that is based on the things it was inspired upon and on the ethics it proposes. Of course, it would be silly of me to try imposing this view on other people and I do not wish for anyone to feel like I'm forcing this on them. So, to make things completely clear, my arguments are exactly that, arguments and they're not meant to be the sole truth between earth and sky. They are my interpretation of the setting and are open to debate. I think its valid for us to expose what leads us and our characters to act the way they do and under which assumptions we are operating when we RP. This isn't a discussion everyone wants to make, I know, but those that do are welcome to it ;D
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Akodo Kenzo
Lion Clan
Lion Clan * Bushi * Tactician * Shireikan of the Akodo Army * Ambassador to the Scorpion Clan
Posts: 371
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Post by Akodo Kenzo on May 24, 2012 2:54:13 GMT -5
(...) an army of the Lion, the Unicorn army and a few veteran imperial legion (kaneka has a few faithful in it) vs the Dragon army should have been no battle, but a butchery. Hitsuzu-san, trust me, it was ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) Do you really think these sorts of taunts are appropriate or constructive?
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Post by Hida Joji on May 24, 2012 5:30:24 GMT -5
I'm sorry Hitsuzu-san. Or you are a samurai, or you are not. I won't meddle anymore, but I think maybe Manji-san understand bushido in the same way I do. Just like the Henshin? the Togashi? the merchant "Samurai"? the fallen Lion Champion that let the Imperial city fall only to be kicked out of it's clan, get an army, win a war and suddenly-OMG-OMG back to hero status? Or Hida-was-an-oni-turned-holy-man Yakamo? Or Hida Sacrificed-my-son-Kisada ? Rokugan is a place where honor is stronger than steel. Just remember... winning is honorable ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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Utaku Mai
Unicorn Clan
*Battle Maiden* *Paragon of Honor* *Goddamn Rockstar*
Posts: 484
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Post by Utaku Mai on May 24, 2012 8:02:36 GMT -5
Yeah, it's not like there was this whole big thing canonically where everyone was vying for their favorite descendant of Toturi the first. ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png) I don't think you appreciate how big of a thing it was for the Hantei line to die out, and the changes in the mindset of the average Rokugani that came about as a result of it. The fact that the emperor were susceptible at all to getting killed by Bayushi Shoju at all indicates his lack of divinity. Moto Tsuko proved the folly of following your lord blindly. Toturi, quite possibly the greatest leader Rokugan ever had, was a *Ronin*, and according to your own rules, should never have been put in such a high position as the freaking emperor, and yet it happened. The lion made a pretty audacious decision on the second day of Thunder, having to decide whether Akodo's oath meant they should follow the emperor, or the empire. The success of the fight against Fu Leng depended on this decision. According to the rules that you laid out, their choice was the wrong one, but when the Celestial order would allow Fu Leng complete rule over Rokugan, I think it's fair to say that the Celestial Order was rightly thrown out the window. The characters we play in this game are the children of those alive during the clan wars when all of this went down. Do you think they would have been taught from a young age that the way of the samurai was to follow their lord nomatter what? Or do you think they would be taught that sometimes, Bushido demands that you stand up for what is right, even if you stand against the celestial order? As a counterpoint, look at this guy, who did pretty much everything right according to your rules: www.kazenoshiro.com/2007/01/08/the-deathseeker/
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Post by Bayushi Hiromitsu on May 24, 2012 8:21:01 GMT -5
I'm sorry Hitsuzu-san. Or you are a samurai, or you are not. I won't meddle anymore, but I think maybe Manji-san understand bushido in the same way I do. Just like the Henshin? the Togashi? the merchant "Samurai"? the fallen Lion Champion that let the Imperial city fall only to be kicked out of it's clan, get an army, win a war and suddenly-OMG-OMG back to hero status? Or Hida-was-an-oni-turned-holy-man Yakamo? Or Hida Sacrificed-my-son-Kisada ? I understant your point of view. It is kinda weird that the bushido is still the same. Anyway, if I have to chose something to ignore, between the official time line and the basic tenets of bushido, I would chose the time line. Looks like every update in the storyline brings you another low punch, including a maho army for the empress. And spider as a greater clan. What was really unfair if you ask me. *nothing against the spider players, but they got many last places back then*
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Asahina Yukihime
Crane Clan
Crane Clan Ikazuchi
* Air * Water * Shugenja * Artisan * Asahina Family Daimyo *
Posts: 750
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Post by Asahina Yukihime on May 24, 2012 8:33:05 GMT -5
Again, point of views about the setting... it's not like it would happen the same way IF players had full choice (like in a table top game), instead of being forced into competitive situations by the CCG. Just my 2 useless cents. I like to play this game with a much more oriental flavor than proposed by the "canon". Like all RPG, no one is forced to go by the book, people are free to re-write history (what I do often, because I really dislike the official storyline) About the rules, the rules are kinda clear about what classes are samurai and where do samurai born from ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) So, Heishin, Togashi monk , etc, are samurai, but not bushi, so bushido may not be their "honor guide". Well, Manji-san and Hiromitsu-san, we are not in accordance with the canon.
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on May 24, 2012 9:30:55 GMT -5
Yeah, it's not like there was this whole big thing canonically where everyone was vying for their favorite descendant of Toturi the first. ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png) I don't think you appreciate how big of a thing it was for the Hantei line to die out, and the changes in the mindset of the average Rokugani that came about as a result of it. The fact that the emperor were susceptible at all to getting killed by Bayushi Shoju at all indicates his lack of divinity. Moto Tsuko proved the folly of following your lord blindly. Toturi, quite possibly the greatest leader Rokugan ever had, was a *Ronin*, and according to your own rules, should never have been put in such a high position as the freaking emperor, and yet it happened. It would be nice if the CCG championships followed bushido or the tenets set by their own setting but, alas, we are not lucky like that and, as players of the RPG, have to deal with messes like the Spider as a Great Clan and many of the things you guys mentioned (this is a half-joke, half serious thought). Since this is the hand that we've been dealt, lemme try to argue my way around it wherever possible. It would be surely easier if they didn't try to cram everything that happens in the CCG into the RPG, since the two are very different beasts but... Mai, regarding what you've mentioned about Emperor Hantei the 38th (it is a joke unto itself that the name of the Rokugani Emperors is written with roman numerals, I think) being susceptible to death at the treacherous hands of Bayushi Shoju, that doesn't indicate that his rule was not "blessed by the Kami" or that he "lacked divinity" because, even though he was the chosen of the Heavens, he was still a mortal dwelling on Ningen-do and, when even the Kami can die, I think its somewhat unfair to accuse the Emperor of being less "sacred" because he did what a mortal being would do when hit hard enough with a piece of metal, died. And the Clan Wars was justifiable because the incarnation of Fu Leng was sitting on the throne, not a "true Emperor" (you know something is VERY wrong when demons of Jigoku fight for the Emperor, which is clearly very far from our case as there is absolutely no indication that Naseru was ever "compromised"). As I see it, in a game of rock, paper and scissors, the Taint is a nuke, as in, it trumps everything. The Emperor being Tainted and actively working for Fu Leng may very well render the oaths of all its samurai moot. I think that in such scenario they should, at least, be able to "break their oaths" to set things right, committing seppuku after, not before, the balance has been restored to the Empire in order to clean their honor, if such is needed (this sort of thing was not uncommon during the Shogunate and seppuku could be used to prove a point to one's Lord). As for Toturi, he was, before being made a ronin by the "Emperor who was Fu Leng", the Akodo daimyo. I think the fact that the Emperor, in this case, was Fu Leng can render his decisions moot, as argued above. Again, as I see it, the Taint is always the bigger threat and its existence, along with other supernatural elements, justifies things that wouldn't be possible in our world (it is, after all, a corruption of the body and the soul, it actively condemns you to Jigoku, snatching you away from the Celestial Order and separating you from your ancestors. I cannot think of a more abhorrent destiny for a Rokugani). I'll think some more before answering the rest of your post. But, anyway, you and Joji raise valid points, thanks for helping ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) EDIT: I agree, again, with Hiromitsu and Raposa.
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Daigotsu Thrakhath
Spider Clan
Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken
Posts: 600
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Post by Daigotsu Thrakhath on May 24, 2012 9:42:13 GMT -5
Nobody loves us. /tear
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Kenji
Dragon Clan
Otokodate of the Scarab. Ta?sa
Posts: 80
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Post by Kenji on May 24, 2012 9:47:02 GMT -5
I do love Spiders. They help my kenjutsu skills to keep at a high level.
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Utaku Mai
Unicorn Clan
*Battle Maiden* *Paragon of Honor* *Goddamn Rockstar*
Posts: 484
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Post by Utaku Mai on May 24, 2012 10:09:59 GMT -5
Oh, don't get me started on the silliness of the canon as dictated by the CCG, Manji. I actually do agree with you on that for the most part. Much ridiculousness has taken place in the fifteen years that the L5R story has more-or-less existed.
Mostly the point I was trying to make is that picking and choosing which elements of the story apply to you runs both ways.
Additionally, I think on some level you have to lampshade things just a little bit, and consider what would be best for the roleplay experience as a whole. Calling anyone on the other end of this civil war storyline a non-samurai who is equivalent to a gaijin or non-human only serves to piss off the other storytellers -- rightly so I might add -- and I have yet to see evidence that it adds anything to make the story better.
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Zeure
Crane Clan
Crane Clan ? Samurai ? Duelist ? Artisan ? Guardian of Metal ? Unique
Posts: 826
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Post by Zeure on May 24, 2012 10:34:10 GMT -5
Your mom's a non-human. Am I adding anything to it? No? Uh... well... ![](http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/201/508/221435NothingtodoHereGifMadethiscuzIwas2479d82822723.gif?1321553488)
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Asahina Yukihime
Crane Clan
Crane Clan Ikazuchi
* Air * Water * Shugenja * Artisan * Asahina Family Daimyo *
Posts: 750
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Post by Asahina Yukihime on May 24, 2012 10:59:14 GMT -5
Manji-san seems to be a honored non-human IC ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) A bunch of spirits are very respectable being non-humans as well ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) And some non-humans do fine samurais, like Doji Ameiko
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on May 24, 2012 11:36:10 GMT -5
Actually, Manji's grandmother was (and a whole bunch of his Kitsune ancestors and a couple of his Dragon ones if you really go back on his family tree), not his mother. He fully embraced his non-human side though and, personally, doesn't care much about the Celestial Order. He is also not a bushi, so, yeah, not exactly the poster boy for bushido (since he is shugenja, he is more akin to a monk in ethical terms), but he is definitely samurai (he could've stayed far from human matters but he chose to be a part of them and, ultimately, chose to serve a Lord to protect something greater than himself). And because he is samurai, but not exactly within the Celestial Order (not like common humans are), he cares about his Clan, his Empire, his Emperor and those whose souls and destinies are bound to it. I confess that, if I could "go back on it" today, I would've made a simple Mirumoto bushi just for the sake of avoiding headaches. Shugenja are almost as complicated as monks, non-humans are very complicated and mixing the two is a recipe for trouble. As a narrator, I would allow a character like Manji on my game table only if the idea came from someone I trusted to not abuse the power and, even then, after a very detailed inquiry about many important aspects of the character (power and story-wise). The biggest downside is that a character like him does not fit many campaign ideas, which is why I kinda restrict my RP here to situations where I cannot abuse my own abilities, where using it openly is not a problem or where I get to interact directly with the few shugenja and monks around. Calling anyone on the other end of this civil war storyline a non-samurai who is equivalent to a gaijin or non-human only serves to piss off the other storytellers -- rightly so I might add -- and I have yet to see evidence that it adds anything to make the story better. Its not meant as an offense or a derisive commentary though, but as a simple recognition of the facts as seen by those protecting the "apparently" rightful Emperor. Under the circumstances that we have, I think two sides supporting different Emperors is definitely more divisive than it was during the Clan Wars (when the Emperor on the throne clearly became THE enemy), especially when the other Emperor, albeit a brother, is low-born. Supporting Kaneka in this conflict, as I see it, is akin to wanting to change the fundamental elements of what composes Rokugani society. As a player, I do not see this as a bad thing, but I don't also see why dress it as something else. I actually think it would be much more interesting if those supporting Kaneka embraced the desire for societal change, instead of simply claiming that their Emperor is the rightful one, when it clearly isn't, and trying to play "by the old rules". Changing the "rules" of the game altogether sounds much more like what you all are trying to do, so, why not embrace it? Needless to say that the Kolat must find this all very amusing. They can either support a Hantei who does not have the blood of the Kami (a joke in itself) or support Toturi, someone who embraces his humanity, to lead Rokugan.
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Hitsuzu
Dragon Clan
Ronin, Ise Zumi, Bloodspeaker's bane, Friendly Traveller (with Sak
Posts: 52
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Post by Hitsuzu on May 24, 2012 13:06:27 GMT -5
moua... You obviously didn't spent as much time reading me as you took writing your answers ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) . Hantei Naseru is no emperor for us. Period. You seem to think he has been ruling rokugan for decades, that the wind's war (another insanity coming from the ccg) is over and forgotten, etc... I don't see it this way. For me, Kaneka has the same right to be emperor as naseru. His mother is an hinin, yes, but that do not define your samurai status. It is a stain, yes, but his father is the emperor. the true one, remember? the "acknoweldged-by-the-kami"'s one? and yet naseru crowned himself, with the approval of some major clan's daimyo. who are the only ones to have a say in this matter, as it always have been (tournament of the kami at the beginning, crane brides for the emperor, scorpion everywhere, gozoku, shoju's attempt to kill hantei and his was not the first attempt, kisada's attack of otosan uchi -and he didn't knew that fu leng has possessed hantei 39...) So now we have some major clan's daimyo supporting another heir, one with a military mind and experience, with some morals, and someone who do not wish to create a fake "revival" of the hantei bloodline. It makes sense for me. It certainly make sense for them. It is not a rebellion, it is not a war against the celestial order (which, as a kolat player, i deeply regret). It is the continuation of a succession war. When Toturi the first died, many thought he wanted to name kaneka as his heir. Tsudao was accepted by most, but she died. The hantei XVI-raised Naseru takes the throne. he acts stupid, hides himself in his capital during wars when people where used to militant emperors. He had it coming... As Hantei followers, you are all playing well your role in the GAME, being fanatical and rash, but try to be a bit more subtle in your approach of others PLAYERS. Thanks. (and the comparison with reality should be avoided, yes. No society was as strictly separated into layers like rokugan, even feodal japan. And there's always the risk of going to close to the godwin's point ;D ) And sorry for my terrible english ![:-[](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/embarrassed.png)
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Shosuro Aroru
Scorpion Clan
Scorpion Clan Ninja * Duelist
Posts: 625
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Post by Shosuro Aroru on May 24, 2012 13:28:56 GMT -5
...The emperor has been ruling for 4 years now, Kaneka abdicated his claim to the throne already, then decided to un-abdicate it. That's part of EE's timeline.
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