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Post by Shoju on Sept 19, 2011 12:38:09 GMT -5
Since, I'm a one man sillyness show that is the "snake" clan, and my views aren't the same as my fellow clansmen anymore, how about a ronin option?
I have at least suckered a few people into RPing with me about the rift, but... no supporters, so Ronin is probably the 'easiest" solution.
It would also help the dragons who went ronin, and others who might feel the need to leave the confines of their comfy clan life.
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Post by kentaro on Sept 19, 2011 12:46:37 GMT -5
Shoju-san, any thoughts on the mechanics?
Here are mine:
* Create a few stock ronin schools (warrior, duelist, courtier, ninja/bandit, shugenja). * Glory Loss / Infamy Gain to go ronin (Hey, you wanna be an outlaw, deal.). Removes all Clan tags.
* Allow marriage into a Clan to return, possibly create a new swear fealty action for some clans. Should be at least as difficult as the marriage option. Maybe only allow return from ronin once (to prevent gamesmanship of joining every clan to get the school skill bonuses.)
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Post by Shoju on Sept 20, 2011 9:02:11 GMT -5
Easy Ronin Schools;
Bushi - Athletics, Kenjutsu Duelist - Iaijutsu, Intimidation Shugenja - Meditation, Spellcraft Monk - Meditation, Art Ninja / bandit - Stealth, Intimidation.
2 stats for bonus skills, because you are a ronin, and that shouldn't be a walk in the park.
HEAVYGlory and Honor Loss to become a ronin, as well as a healthy dose of Infamy. I'm talking
-1k Glory, -1k honor, +1K infamy
size losses. I mean, we are talking about a serious loss of face in rokugani society.
You can re-marry into clans, but the matchmaker in Toshi Ranbo will need to be made unavailable to Ronin somehow. You will need to meet a new matchmaker, preferably in some seedy place like Kyuden Kasuga, or the Gaijin area in southern Unicorn Lands. Ronin must always then choose the "Marry into Clan" to become married.
Other options to regain Clan status
20 Goblin Winter can lead to a job for Ronin Only to become Crab Unicorn might have a way, Minor Clans might have a way, Spider already have a way to join, Maybe add a way to join as a Dragon Monk (and only as a dragon monk)
These are just my ideas off the top of my head.
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Sept 20, 2011 11:45:22 GMT -5
I disagree with heavy Infamy gain to become Ronin, simply because being Ronin doesn't imply that you are a bandit. You can be a Ronin and a bandit but one thing doesn't necessarily lead to another, you can also be a Ronin and a farmer. Ronin are not outlaws, although they may become such, they're simply people who lost their social standing and, with that, their money. They're unemployed warriors.
Heavy Honor losses are more complicated. Theoretically, Honor in L5R is personal, but tied to Bushido and being a Samurai. So, in practice, while a Ronin may have a code of conduct or may have become a Ronin because of Honor, it does not have Honor, because it is not a Samurai anymore.
Now, heavy Glory losses (which is the loss of face Shoju mentioned) are very adequate and, if possible, a limit to how much Koku a Ronin may have would be fitting to the situation. Shoju is also correct that its harder for a Ronin to train his previous talents, so, the limited skills make sense.
The option to join a Clan again should not be marriage. It should be impossible for a Ronin to marry into a Great Clan (Minor Clan, maybe, Great Clan, definitely not). There could be a series of quests through which a Ronin may prove his loyalty to a Clan and which end up with him being accepted though.
I think the Ronin thing is more complicated than it looks.
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Utaku Mai
Unicorn Clan
*Battle Maiden* *Paragon of Honor* *Goddamn Rockstar*
Posts: 484
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Post by Utaku Mai on Sept 20, 2011 14:36:09 GMT -5
It would be awesome if instead of having outfit numbers, if you could give them a text label. I can never remember if a numbered outfit was my "battle" outfit or "courtier" outfit, and tend to have to scroll through all of them, or just not use it at all and pull straight from inventory.
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Post by Shoju on Sept 20, 2011 14:47:46 GMT -5
I disagree with heavy Infamy gain to become Ronin, simply because being Ronin doesn't imply that you are a bandit. You can be a Ronin and a bandit but one thing doesn't necessarily lead to another, you can also be a Ronin and a farmer. Ronin are not outlaws, although they may become such, they're simply people who lost their social standing and, with that, their money. They're unemployed warriors. Heavy Honor losses are more complicated. Theoretically, Honor in L5R is personal, but tied to Bushido and being a Samurai. So, in practice, while a Ronin may have a code of conduct or may have become a Ronin because of Honor, it does not have Honor, because it is not a Samurai anymore. Now, heavy Glory losses (which is the loss of face Shoju mentioned) are very adequate and, if possible, a limit to how much Koku a Ronin may have would be fitting to the situation. Shoju is also correct that its harder for a Ronin to train his previous talents, so, the limited skills make sense. The option to join a Clan again should not be marriage. It should be impossible for a Ronin to marry into a Great Clan (Minor Clan, maybe, Great Clan, definitely not). There could be a series of quests through which a Ronin may prove his loyalty to a Clan and which end up with him being accepted though. I think the Ronin thing is more complicated than it looks. Starting as a ronin, and leaving your clan are 2 completely different things. I can't think of a time where leaving your clan and becoming ronin was looked at as the noble, glorious, honorable thing to do. Even for a Musha Shugyo the way that Takezo did. So SCANDALOUS! Loss of face, would also cause infamy. The Akodo who were stripped of their name and clan after the scorpion clan coup would have gained infamy because of it. As would Toturi. As would Takezo and Ojii I also don't have a problem with a ronin marrying into any clan. It has happened before in the history of Rokugan, but it isn't very common, which is I why I think that there should be a heavy amount of work done to get it done.
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Sept 20, 2011 16:00:56 GMT -5
Starting as a ronin, and leaving your clan are 2 completely different things. I can't think of a time where leaving your clan and becoming ronin was looked at as the noble, glorious, honorable thing to do. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty-seven_ronin
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Kitsuki Yuushahime
Dragon Clan
This person sometimes posts things that are tl;dr
Courtier Magistrate Ambassador Daimyo
Posts: 1,140
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Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Sept 20, 2011 16:35:16 GMT -5
Asked and answered Manji, good link!
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Post by kentaro on Sept 20, 2011 16:38:45 GMT -5
Actually, there was considerable contemporary debate about the honor of their actions.
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Post by Mirumoto Asano on Sept 20, 2011 16:51:49 GMT -5
Also they become ronin after their daimyo commit seppuku, they didn't leave their clan, they become ronin as a punishment, so in my opinion this example is invalid.
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Sept 20, 2011 17:07:38 GMT -5
Ok, the problem was that I didn't explain. I've meant that link as an example of how becoming Ronin can be, at least, debatable where honor is concerned.
The main wikipedia article about Ronin mentions another example when it says: "(...) On the other hand, the famous 18th century writer Kyokutei Bakin renounced his allegiance to Matsudaira Nobunari, in whose service Bakin's samurai father had spent his life. Bakin became voluntarily a rōnin, and eventually spent his time writing books (many of them about samurai)and being festive."
I think being a Ronin is as complex as being unemployed today and it has to be analyzed in a case by case basis. Still, what I've said before is still valid. In L5R, Honor is a Samurai thing, a Ronin may have a code of conduct but he doesn't have Honor because he doesn't have a Lord. Still, not having Honor doesn't mean Infamy. Infamy is the Glory of the "Underworld", losing one doesn't mean gaining the other and one person may have both. And Honor has absolutely nothing to do with both (at least not directly).
PS.: Sorry for the wikipedia only references, but I am currently too busy with other researches to go deeper into the matter.
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Mirumoto Machu
Dragon Clan
Advantage: Different school Shiba bushi. Dissadvantage: Missing limb
Posts: 299
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Post by Mirumoto Machu on Sept 20, 2011 17:18:45 GMT -5
I want to see a job some where in the shadowlands that costs puzzle boxes.
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Post by kentaro on Sept 20, 2011 17:53:44 GMT -5
My only argument in favor of the infamy hit is the difficulty in removing infamy. An honor loss provides some obstacles, but not many. Admittedly, neither does infamy (only stops 1 set of actions on 2 random encounters). Really, I just want to see ronin suffer some penalty mechanically. I like the less school skill option. Lack of Clan actions is something too. And yes, I do hate Wikipedia. But I'll be cool about it In the Edo period, it was not unheard of for people to renounce samurai status to pursue artistic or mercantile endeavors. I must say, I love all the options being presented. It seems like we all agree it should be possible, there should be a reputation loss, and skills should be harder. The rest is just details.
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Post by Mirumoto Daisuke on Sept 21, 2011 4:52:52 GMT -5
Stuff I'd like to see: 1) More low-level actions that tie in to the war. Right now, you need about 40 in one of a few skills (granted, it's a pretty wide variety), but it would be nice to see. 2) Continuation/conclusion to the Isawa Sezaru story - seems like that just dropped dead. 3) Fix the recruit troops mastery journal entries to not refer to the Yobanjin, since that threat has subsided.
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Post by Utaku Kasumi on Sept 21, 2011 5:11:27 GMT -5
Ad 3: Are you sure? Because I am not
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