Kakita Shinji
Crane Clan
Laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone
Posts: 485
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Post by Kakita Shinji on Apr 27, 2011 16:02:36 GMT -5
Well to me it seems there is almost no drawback, and considerable bonuses. And all I'd like to see is just some bonuses for honorable, pure samurai.
But you actually thrown interesting idea. How about random encounter that pops up seldom everywhere, something like guard checkpoint, where untainted characters can go free for 1 fate, while tainted characters have some unpleasant alternatives. Especially now with bloodspeakers roaming from dragon lands to scorpion courts, it would make sense.
Still something more than Reinhado would be nice.
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Kitsuki Yuushahime
Dragon Clan
This person sometimes posts things that are tl;dr
Courtier Magistrate Ambassador Daimyo
Posts: 1,140
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Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Apr 27, 2011 16:17:48 GMT -5
Shoju - I disagree with your argument that no doing infamy or taint missions is like you restricting yourself by not doing glory/honor gaining missions. That would be a choice that made no sense. You're playing a tainted character well and I'm doing the opposite. It wouldn't fit in the setting for someone to do no honour loss/gain and the same for glory. They'd just be playing a peasant. This is about playing samurai in the Emerald Empire.
Also, while I admire your zeal in pursuing activities that enhance the Spider position I think I need to remind you that you are the exception. Most players who play Spider aren't active on the board and aren't trying to rp it. They will work out exactly the best way of getting all the "goodies" including enlightenment and how to min/max I suppose. They will try to get every action for tokens and clear as many actions as possible, regardless of whether it makes sense or not. Look at all the people that clicked for and against or all three options on so many actions in the past rather than support just one.
Anyhow, I don't think you are actually disagreeing that much with my primary suggestion - it'd be nice to have a few more jobs that are "no infamy" and/or "no taint" and push for paragon like status for samurai.
Amusingly I probably wouldn't actually pursue this with Hime as I don't see her being super honourable but... i'm trying to play a character that will avoid taint and doesn't like to make a bad name for herself as it'd negatively affect her courtly duties.
That's my own restriction and I accept that. However, I think there should be some more benefits to players that go for what people are calling the purist route.
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Post by tadakasan on Apr 27, 2011 16:22:00 GMT -5
Well, I thought about it some more anyways, and I thought of one thing; really, looking at things in total, I don't really see why it makes a difference. Does letting yourself do missions that give you taint or infamy open up more jobs and thus let you get more rings? It does obviously, and that seems to be the considerable bonus most people are talking about (I can't think of any equipment I use from tainted missions that's for sure.)
Buuuut... on the other hand, you have to remember that a ~lot~ of missions that give Infamy or Taint also take away honor and/or glory. In fact, being high on the Taint and Infamy lists seems to be quite mutually exclusive to being high in the Glory and Honor lists. One could argue that Rings provide a more tangible bonus in the form of more fate, and that is true. But I'm thinking most people you asked on the tops of the Glory and Honor boards are fine with the amount of Fate they have. Oh, and as a side effect, being high on the Experience boards ~also~ seems to be mutually exclusive to having high Taint and Infamy; this is because while Tainted characters have more missions to do, that gives them less time to focus on jobs that give a high fate to xp ratio. I admit to being somewhat an exception to this particular side effect, but I am almost 20k behind my Clanmate Taeshik for a reason.
So yeah; I do see the benefit of being honorable, glorious, and generally getting more xp (and thus levels and skills) as a trade off that's probably a worth while trade off for having less rings and fate, especially when you consider the points already brought up about it having to be a hard choice anyways.
Oh, and as one last side note, a lot of the people on the tops of the ring boards are also purists; while I may end up passing some of those people at some point, choosing to forgo Taint and Infamy certainly does not deny one high rings or fate. So the more I look, the less considerable bonus I see to being tainted.
That said, being stopped by magistrates randomly would be kinda cool ;p
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Kitsuki Yuushahime
Dragon Clan
This person sometimes posts things that are tl;dr
Courtier Magistrate Ambassador Daimyo
Posts: 1,140
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Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Apr 27, 2011 16:22:11 GMT -5
Well to me it seems there is almost no drawback, and considerable bonuses. And all I'd like to see is just some bonuses for honorable, pure samurai. But you actually thrown interesting idea. How about random encounter that pops up seldom everywhere, something like guard checkpoint, where untainted characters can go free for 1 fate, while tainted characters have some unpleasant alternatives. Especially now with bloodspeakers roaming from dragon lands to scorpion courts, it would make sense. Still something more than Reinhado would be nice. 100% in agreement! If we go to the shadowlands there is a chance a few nasty encounters pop up that can give people taint if they cannot avoid it. Let's have the return. If you're tainted and can't hide it and you're in the Empire, expect a hard time occassionally as a random encounter to remind you that travelling is tough! Like the deadly ground encounter in mountain watch keep - sometimes warfare calls for hard choices! I think infamous characters should have the same thing happen to them too, along with other options that make it easier for them. "You encounter highwaymen... A) If you have 100 infamy they exchange stories with you b) if you have 10+ taint you can scare them away c) if you have neither, you need to either fight them or pay them and lose glory" - that kinda thing? Reward people for sticking to certain things for their characters while also giving them difficult decisions too. Some of the best RPGs are like that. Those are my thoughts. I am still super happy over this update though and am totally hunting clues!
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Kitsuki Yuushahime
Dragon Clan
This person sometimes posts things that are tl;dr
Courtier Magistrate Ambassador Daimyo
Posts: 1,140
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Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Apr 27, 2011 16:24:58 GMT -5
Well, I thought about it some more anyways, and I thought of one thing; really, looking at things in total, I don't really see why it makes a difference. Does letting yourself do missions that give you taint or infamy open up more jobs and thus let you get more rings? It does obviously, and that seems to be the considerable bonus most people are talking about (I can't think of any equipment I use from tainted missions that's for sure.) Buuuut... on the other hand, you have to remember that a ~lot~ of missions that give Infamy or Taint also take away honor and/or glory. In fact, being high on the Taint and Infamy lists seems to be quite mutually exclusive to being high in the Glory and Honor lists. One could argue that Rings provide a more tangible bonus in the form of more fate, and that is true. But I'm thinking most people you asked on the tops of the Glory and Honor boards are fine with the amount of Fate they have. Oh, and as a side effect, being high on the Experience boards ~also~ seems to be mutually exclusive to having high Taint and Infamy; this is because while Tainted characters have more missions to do, that gives them less time to focus on jobs that give a high fate to xp ratio. I admit to being somewhat an exception to this particular side effect, but I am almost 20k behind my Clanmate Taeshik for a reason. So yeah; I do see the benefit of being honorable, glorious, and generally getting more xp (and thus levels and skills) as a trade off that's probably a worth while trade off for having less rings and fate, especially when you consider the points already brought up about it having to be a hard choice anyways. Oh, and as one last side note, a lot of the people on the tops of the ring boards are also purists; while I may end up passing some of those people at some point, choosing to forgo Taint and Infamy certainly does not deny one high rings or fate. So the more I look, the less considerable bonus I see to being tainted. That said, being stopped by magistrates randomly would be kinda cool ;p I have to agree with your findings and sentiments. I will add that many on the leaderboard, though you are right that they restrict themselves to being "purists", have been playing a lot longer so have had a chance to really click everything, even to max mastery levels. I think a fair number of people who have taken the tainted routes haven't been doing it quite as long, so that may change your findings slightly. I could well be wrong but I'd like to say it is something to be aware of. Nonetheless, generally, I think you are spot on Tadaka
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Ojii
Dragon Clan
RONIN - Former Dragon Clan Sensei
Posts: 375
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Post by Ojii on Apr 27, 2011 16:27:39 GMT -5
First sorry to have started this tread in the wrong section... but then its here now.
My point was very simple and everybody's positon is has acceptable has mine. We just have diffrent point of view that, mostly, reflect the perspective of our caracter.
Tadaka and Shinji are both right! By tadaka's perspective, the player choosing not to do tainted or infamous action do it because he want is caracter to be "pur" and by this forego the advantage of easy Rings / Fate and items. This is true. But if you take Japan, Rokugan, or EE for exemple, the society puts honor and the 7 vertus on the front line. Because of that, its strange and way to easy for "bad" caracters to walk among the Empire like "normal" individual and have there crimes (maho,...) unpunished. (i remember a spider player in the last winter court that presented is Koruban and kuni witch hunter and said : "look, i'm tainted but i have those nice followers with me ..." :-) )
I did today check at all the jobs i can an cannot do with my caracter and i could boost up my fate by 12 to 15 points within 2 or 3 days if i do all those "tainted,..." jobs. Can on the other hand "bad" caracter say the same while doing the all around jobs? I don't think so.
Right now there is just a BIG imbalance between GOOD and BAD jobs in an Empire that emphasise on the honor and vertus. This just need to be clarified by the players and more so by Jay and Allison to see wich direction they want to gice to there world and the players evolution in it.
Thanks! Ojii
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Shagi the Mad
Crane Clan
Fallen Crane * Scout * Mad * Shadowlands * Experienced 4 Hiruma Shagi
Posts: 180
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Post by Shagi the Mad on Apr 27, 2011 17:17:21 GMT -5
I did today check at all the jobs i can an cannot do with my caracter and i could boost up my fate by 12 to 15 points within 2 or 3 days if i do all those "tainted,..." jobs. You wouldn't even have to do tainted jobs. There's a whole bunch of Infamy jobs that could give you the same boost. But that wouldn't be your style! I've played a lot more Pendragon than L5R, and in the early days, I'd try to get my character's personality traits to the magic 16 for the mechanical advantage it gives. But later I found I enjoyed simply playing my character and letting the traits develop by themselves. That's how I view Honour/Glory/Infamy. I simply do the jobs I think my character would, and let those three stats fall where they may. If I'm playing an honourable character, then I'll pick up little infamy. As it is, I'm playing a guy who isn't afraid to get his hands dirty; so infamy is a by-product of that. Taint is a whole different ballgame. If I hadn't misclicked, I'd still be on taint 0. As it is, I have sufficient faith in the Kuni to help me control it that I can do the odd tainted job occasionally if I'm desperate for some quick resources. I will get those lost mempos to the witchhunters eventually! But I think most of us agree there should be consequences. The biggest consequences in the game so far are those darned Sworn enemies; some of which are a little unexpected (how was I to know that laughing in the Handsome Officer's face would lead to a Crane Sworn Enemy?). Taint should probably have more benefits and problems. Infamous characters should need more etiquette and courtier. Perhaps they should have an advantage in intimidation? Maybe stealthy characters should pick up less infamy, especially in those jobs in out of the way places?
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Akodo Kenzo
Lion Clan
Lion Clan * Bushi * Tactician * Shireikan of the Akodo Army * Ambassador to the Scorpion Clan
Posts: 371
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Post by Akodo Kenzo on Apr 27, 2011 23:54:15 GMT -5
Apparently the Scorpion are launching their own investigation at the Palace of Crimson Shadows, as opposed to just the Dragon's up in the mountains. I haven't had a chance to check do both yet, as they're rather fate-heavy.
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Toku Hirotomo
Monkey Clan
Bushi Paragon of Compassion Clan Champion Toturi's Army
Posts: 793
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Post by Toku Hirotomo on Apr 28, 2011 2:19:56 GMT -5
I've been as pure as driven snow from the start. Having no taint and never once gave into the temptations that would bring me infamy. If the geisha houses did not stop giving infamy, i would never have stepped foot in them, needing a geisha for an honorable mission or not. I know that the word is out there that people would like to see more bonus for being an honorable and pure person, but to me honor is it's own reward. I've done things that might be percived as dishonorable, but nothing that would stain my name. I'm happy enough being where i am with what i have. I'm happy to be the most glorious Monkey, the (currently) 51st most glorious and at the very bottom of the taint and infamy scorebord. Tied with most other samurai I imagine. That being said, I have seen things that your infamy or taint cannot be too high. Unless you want to open up an ancestor slot that would only work in certain ways for certain clans, and certain levels of taint and infamy. That'd be a pain to code though.
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Kakita Shinji
Crane Clan
Laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone
Posts: 485
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Post by Kakita Shinji on May 2, 2011 5:59:40 GMT -5
Something tells me that with help of Kitsuki friends it would be possible to find out more about Bloodspeakers. Too bad it would require TEN journals while it's possible to get only 3 (if I'm not mistaken). So the real question is... does anyone know if it's possible to get more? Or perhaps Jay made mistake with settings for newly added action?
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Post by Shoju on May 2, 2011 10:30:34 GMT -5
Shoju - I disagree with your argument that no doing infamy or taint missions is like you restricting yourself by not doing glory/honor gaining missions. That would be a choice that made no sense. You're playing a tainted character well and I'm doing the opposite. It wouldn't fit in the setting for someone to do no honour loss/gain and the same for glory. They'd just be playing a peasant. This is about playing samurai in the Emerald Empire. I disagree with this assertion. Is Chuda Shoju a "Glorious" Character? Is he an "Honorable" character? Would I go and spread news about the war in Shiro Moto mere days removed from raising packs of undead from the ground in the Fields of the Dead, and then KILLING samurai with them? Is that REALLY the type of behavior that I would engage in? Highly doubtful. To be fair though, MOST players aren't active on the boards, so we can't really talk about what those players are doing as it is merely conjecture. This game has... close to 5k open accounts. playing it. Now, I'm not going to say that all those people actively play. I'm also not going to say that all those accounts are individuals. These forums have 345 accounts on them, and I know that I have 2 accounts, as do others. This board is probably a 10% sampling of the active players playing the game. And no, I bet a lot of players aren't min/maxing. When I started playing this game, I had NO IDEA that there were places like Reihado Shinsei with jobs for me to do that I couldn't do with certain levels of thigns, and I didn't have any clue that infamy would leave me out of things. While yes, there are those who will take the time to min max, I disagree with you on the assertion that most spider players are min maxing. Sure. You can have those jobs. As long as I get some jobs that require <0 Honor, or >1000 taint, or >1000 infamy. I want to FEEL[/i] like I'm playing a Spider. I want to FEEL[/i] like I'm trying to subvert and thwart the Samurai. I want to feel like a villain. Samurai > 0 Glory (peasant) > Bad Guys
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Agasha Shodai
Phoenix Clan Mod
Phoenix Clan * The Void Master * Tensai * Taisa * Enlightened * Paragon of Compassion * Unique
Posts: 783
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Post by Agasha Shodai on May 2, 2011 10:31:20 GMT -5
OR there's more to come.
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Shosuro Aroru
Scorpion Clan
Scorpion Clan Ninja * Duelist
Posts: 625
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Post by Shosuro Aroru on May 2, 2011 15:44:24 GMT -5
...Basically the gist of all this is that players who intentionally limit themselves are complaining that the game isn't being shaped to applaud them for their own choices of the game. They posit that it's intrinsically "correct" for Samurai to never have infamy or taint as opposed to just their opinion. It's entirely up to every player to do whatever jobs they want and Jay is under no obligation to say, well you sir have managed to never do a single job giving you a fire element token, obviously that should be rewarded.
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Post by Soshi Kiso on May 2, 2011 17:54:15 GMT -5
lol, I have to exalt that last post for sure!
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Kitsu Hiraku
Lion Clan
Sodan-senzo * Loyal to the Emperor
Posts: 197
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Post by Kitsu Hiraku on May 2, 2011 18:15:14 GMT -5
I could borrow you the ones I found Shinji... since the Dragon seem to have something against tainted people helping them in the investigation :/
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