Ojii
Dragon Clan
RONIN - Former Dragon Clan Sensei
Posts: 375
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Post by Ojii on May 2, 2011 23:05:21 GMT -5
WOW! Is it going to far? Your comment seems a bit harsh Aroru San, or maybe i'm misreading you?
The (lets say my) point is not about rings, but about the essence of EE. Is it a world where honor and others vertues come first or a world where the vilains plays the center part and can "walk the empire" and do everything the "rightous" samourai would do? Surely the answer is in the middle of this.
Not all the caracters i have played where like Ojii (all about honor) , but my feeling is that there must be more boundaries between what an indiviadual can and cannot do because of is past choices (how can Ojii go to the court of Daigotsu and not be question about it would be an exemple). Most player do this game the "clic" way and the rest of us like RP as well. Can there be a compremise between both? Its up to Jay to see to it but was is realy sensationnal about EE is the relation between the creators and the players. CHAPEAU! . As we say in french "everybody pray for is owne church". The important thing is not to press our opinions, but to have fun and try to improve the game.
That said, have a nice evening!
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Kakita Shinji
Crane Clan
Laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone
Posts: 485
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Post by Kakita Shinji on May 3, 2011 5:38:15 GMT -5
I have better one - how can one raid villages and samurai with undead minions and still be permitted to courts of imperial families and so on? I think Aroru-san misread us, or isn't familiar with L5R atmosphere.
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Post by Shoju on May 3, 2011 6:20:49 GMT -5
I think you (Shinji and Ojii) are missing Aroru's point.
This is a game. Jay and Alison have crafted this game, and there is no set way to play it. We as players have put artificial rules on ourselves based on how we are playing our characters, and then are seeking rewards and more jobs to further this along, and complaining because we aren't getting more to further "our way" of play.
It is a fantastic point made with extreme hyperbole.
L5R atmosphere or Essence of EE aside, Aroru's point is spot on.
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Kitsu Hiraku
Lion Clan
Sodan-senzo * Loyal to the Emperor
Posts: 197
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Post by Kitsu Hiraku on May 3, 2011 6:24:28 GMT -5
Shinji, are you implying all of the tainted characters are dumb? Like "I'm raiding some people and I show of my face and tell them my name?".
Because otherwise I don't see a RP reason as to why they shouldn't be allowed somewhere. I do understand that taint might be a problem (especially if you are not a spider and can't lower it with items... I'm mad at this one.) but if infamy was to stop anyone from entering anywhere then most of the jobs in game should loose their +infamy componet, since no one sees you doing them. Or no one can recognize you. Just my 2 zeni.
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Kakita Shinji
Crane Clan
Laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone
Posts: 485
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Post by Kakita Shinji on May 3, 2011 7:17:49 GMT -5
Shoju-san, you're trying to suggest that we should forget that EE is based on Legend of the Five Rings? There's a reason why clans are called Crane, Scorpion, Dragon and so on. There's a reason for rings and traits like honor, glory, infamy and taint.
Shinji, I'm not implying anything. While Aroru san was implying that we demand something from Jay and Allison, while we just stated our opinion. Last time i checked it wasn't agaisnt rule, nor was it equal to demanding anything.
As for Taint and infamy Daisuke-san, you just have to realise that Taint can be detected and Infamy is gained as negative glory/fame. That means that it's not easy to do some thing while being unrecognized, nor to be unseen. For me there's clear line drawn between jobs that give you -honor and +infamy or -glory.
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Ojii
Dragon Clan
RONIN - Former Dragon Clan Sensei
Posts: 375
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Post by Ojii on May 3, 2011 8:24:31 GMT -5
***Bows***
Those are ALL all good points. Maybe some of us think to much in the L5R fashon. I cannot deny Shinji opinion since i'm a RP first of the L5R setting.
Maybe Jay, from where we are now, can state is point of view about EE and how he see honor, infamy,... that should clarify things up and help keep the RP "friendly".
*** Bows***
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Shagi the Mad
Crane Clan
Fallen Crane * Scout * Mad * Shadowlands * Experienced 4 Hiruma Shagi
Posts: 180
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Post by Shagi the Mad on May 3, 2011 9:07:10 GMT -5
I have better one - how can one raid villages and samurai with undead minions and still be permitted to courts of imperial families and so on? With respect, Shinji-san, those are extreme examples. Many would not dream of raiding villages, but would be quite prepared to have a little R and R at a gambling house, or bond with our wall defenders in a draw-lot play. Others would see pandering to decadent nobles or eavesdroping on dignitaries as part of the political machinations within the Empire. Sure, all those actions would mean that whispered rumours follow the perpetrators; but surely they would not exclude anyone from the courts of Rokugan or the armies of the Emperor? Yes, the ultra-honourable would shy away from such practices. But the path of honour has always been difficult; success on that path should be its own reward. But someone has to deal with the dark underbelly of Rokugan to gain the information needed to protect it. And if that means that our names are spoken with distaste by the holier-than-thou in high places, that is a price we must pay. Having said all that, if Shagi the Bastard thought that joining a raid on villagers would provide him intelligence on bloodspeakers and the Spider that would come in useful, he would not hesitate to do so. He could always steal the peasents back later and deny the Maho-Tsukai their sacrifices. :EDIT: There does need to be a certain amount of consequence to one's actions in this game. But seeing as taking just one infamy-giving job to the third mastery can give 80 infamy (which would take some 8 months to get rid of), I think that the level where consequences start to kick in should be more than the 10 infamy that stops you simply presenting your papers at a chackpoint.
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Post by Shoju on May 3, 2011 9:16:57 GMT -5
Shoju-san, you're trying to suggest that we should forget that EE is based on Legend of the Five Rings? There's a reason why clans are called Crane, Scorpion, Dragon and so on. There's a reason for rings and traits like honor, glory, infamy and taint. Absolutely, 100% no. I'm not. I am however, suggesting that you understand that the Facebook game is not going to be able to be 100% representative of a "real" L5R setting due to 1.) technical limitations. 2.) It isn't making Jay and Alison money, therefore, it is a labor of love, and one they do when they have the time. Aroru wasn't making any such implication. he was commenting on on the "Well but I want this, and I want this, and I want this" mentality that has developed, and made a Hyperbolic statement that you didn't catch. [/u][/b] there's clear line drawn between jobs that give you -honor and +infamy or -glory.[/quote] And the important point in this is now bolded, highlighted, and italicized for emphasis. FOR YOU. Others who play this game, and RP, and Love Legend of the Five Rings will have a different outlook on it than you. That is one of the beautiful things about the inherent simplicity in the game. ***Bows*** Those are ALL all good points. Maybe some of us think to much in the L5R fashon. I cannot deny Shinji opinion since i'm a RP first of the L5R setting. Maybe Jay, from where we are now, can state is point of view about EE and how he see honor, infamy,... that should clarify things up and help keep the RP "friendly". *** Bows*** I'm not 100% certain that is something that Jay needs to do. We are intelligent people. This board is not something that Jay should need to police. He runs a game, and he is VERY good at that. I don't think we need to add "Police the RP that has sprung from the game" to his list of jobs.
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Kakita Shinji
Crane Clan
Laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone
Posts: 485
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Post by Kakita Shinji on May 3, 2011 9:28:10 GMT -5
You are absolutely right Shagi-san. That was extreme example and I share your view. Samurai that has reputation of frequent visiting gambling houses should obviously be permitted everywhere. He must prepare that some diplomats will talk behind his back, but well... On other hand man that openly raided village for sacrifices... Dunno if we should go into mechanics right now but I can clearly give you example of how it could work. Just like Honor and Glory gains are depending on level you already have, same could work here - gambling and drawing would give you +1 infamy to level of 100 infamy, after that no addition. Other way would be to simply change raids so that they give +100 infamy per click. But that's not important. What is important, is that I agree with your point of view with distinguishing those things. Village raids, crime underworld actions could also give a "misc." item "known for crimes" this items that would be used with "may not have: ..." restriction. This could also produce actions that would allow to get rid of those by "kill witness" or "bribe witness". Having said all that, if Shagi the Bastard thought that joining a raid on villagers would provide him intelligence on bloodspeakers and the Spider that would come in useful, he would not hesitate to do so. He could always steal the peasents back later and deny the Maho-Tsukai their sacrifices. Well part of beauty of L5R is in tragic characters, that sacrifice themselves for greater good. Have you seen Hero (Ying Xiong from 2002)? "executed as an assassin but buried as a hero" :EDIT: There does need to be a certain amount of consequence to one's actions in this game. But seeing as taking just one infamy-giving job to the third mastery can give 80 infamy (which would take some 8 months to get rid of), I think that the level where consequences start to kick in should be more than the 10 infamy that stops you simply presenting your papers at a chackpoint. 100% agreed. EDIT: I'm not 100% certain that is something that Jay needs[/u] to do. We are intelligent people. This board is not something that Jay should need[/u] to police. He runs a game, and he is VERY good at that. I don't think we need to add "Police the RP that has sprung from the game" to his list of jobs[/u]. [/quote] I feel unable to discuss with you Shoju-san, after seeing how you twist words of Ojii-san, that "Maybe Jay, from where we are now, can state his point of view..." I don't think we're getting anywhere if statements of opinion will be treated as demands, suggestions as orders. I also won't count how many times I praised (and still praise) Jay and Allison for work they do for EE.
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Kitsu Hiraku
Lion Clan
Sodan-senzo * Loyal to the Emperor
Posts: 197
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Post by Kitsu Hiraku on May 3, 2011 9:39:30 GMT -5
This could also produce actions that would allow to get rid of those by "kill witness" or "bribe witness". OH GOD YES! Because it's true there is a difference between gambling and raiding. But then raiding has fewer witnesses. Dealing with them would be a fun thing to do
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Post by Shoju on May 3, 2011 9:44:40 GMT -5
Moderator Hat on
I'm going to lock this thread. This is quickly boiling down to a point where it is going to get heated. People are taking a line on this that is unacceptable, myself included.
If people want to discuss the locking of this with me or Soshi Kiso, you can do so via PM.
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Post by Utaku Kasumi on May 5, 2011 11:55:09 GMT -5
Just a recommandation if i may. There is so MUCH jobs that the caracters who are tainted of full of infamy can make that it would be nice to have some limitation on other jobs. For exemple the investigantion could have a "max taint / infamy" from 1 to 10 point to represent the "antagonist" part of the spider favors / clan. Right now the caracters who are still "pure" have not much advantage in the empire except for there personnal honor. In fact, in the RPG a highly tainted caracters would be arrested in court and they could not move around as they do. As i often say, this is not L5R but can there be some more advantage to have an honorable bushi or courtier in EE? By all meens i do a constructive critic here (again i know). Ojii I wonder why did I miss it before. I have to object to that. As a Unicorn... maybe I am not pleased with all that taint, but I see no reason to not to have infamy. What's more - having a lot of infamy is keeping into my character. Top 5 in glory - sure, almost everyone know Kasumi... but also... she is infamous - blue eyes, red as blood hair, porcelain skin. She eats meat, she's rough and smiles a lot at the same time. Etiquette is a black magic to her - this is why I let myself have infamy. BUT then again - there are jobs that people with taint can't do. At least a few of them. There are jobs that you have to have taint to do it... But don't treat infamy as something bad. There are a different reasons for having it. You could kill someone innocent and everyone knows about it. Or you can fart while having a dinner with your daimyo (and secretly, behind your back they call you a Poisonous Fart or whatever). Or whatever edit: LOL, just found out that Shoju locked this thread ;D Yeah, he's a smart guy, because while reading this thread I saw some trolling and little sparkles of a flame. My 5 cents here (without reading it all). What path you are chosing is your choice. If you want to play taintless and infamyless samurai - GOOD. If you want to be tainted to the core, or infamous so everyone is closing their eyes while you are passing them by - GOOD. Live the way you want, but at the same time - let others to live the way they want. If you want to do jobs that will never gain you taint/infamy - do it. But do not expect that people will bow to that. MAYBE at some point there will be jobs that only people who are "pure" could do. Same as there are jobs that only really tainted samurai could do. Who knows. Remember that this game is here for around 6 months (at least I've started it on dec 3rd or maybe 1st?). There are many things what will come for you [us] guys. And you all have a privilege to attned that process. We all know that Jay watches our ideas closely and uses them in game. So - stop creating drama (lama drama queen!) and get to work! Ideas! Ideas! Find a proper thread and share it with us and Jay! Hmpf! I has said! Now I go back to my lair to haunt innocent people.
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