Akodo Kenzo
Lion Clan
Lion Clan * Bushi * Tactician * Shireikan of the Akodo Army * Ambassador to the Scorpion Clan
Posts: 371
|
Post by Akodo Kenzo on Jun 19, 2011 4:15:45 GMT -5
If ever there was a clan to look to now, it would be the Lion Clan. How odd that the Right Hand of the Emperor choose to side with a traitor. OOC: Just for the record, no official Lion clan stance has yet been proclaimed by our champion. The only one I've seen thus far saying that the Lion clan as a whole is supporting Kaneka has been the Scorpion clan champion. While I wouldn't wish to cast aspersions on the honor of their clan's leader, until Tomatsu-sama pops in here and says it, it's not official. Incidentally, if any of you know how to get in touch with Tomatsu-sama, there are many of us waiting in the Lion clan chambers eagerly hoping he'll be by to tell us what's going on. Personally, I'm still pretty blown away by all this and haven't yet decided who I support. Yes, I've publicly come out and supported Kaneka in the past. As *Shogun*. I thought that offering his head to the Emperor, unasked for in a time of war when it wasn't even clear that the assassins had been sent by the Emperor at all, was foolish. The dead cannot serve the Empire. But declaring himself the rightful Emperor? I just don't know. Even if his claims are true, Hantei *is* the Emperor. I may not personally approve of the actions that he's taken during his reign, but that doesn't really matter. I am but a lowly bushi, regardless of what titles have been bestowed upon me. Who am I to choose what man is fit to be Emperor?
|
|
|
Post by Shoju on Jun 19, 2011 6:29:09 GMT -5
OOC: I really need some kind of sumup. Is there any Hantei blood in Kaneka? Was Hantei XXXIX vessel of Fu Leng? Did Second Day Of Thunder occur in this storyline? Is Hantei XXXX son of Hantei XXXIX? No Hantei in Kaneka. No Hantei in Hantei XL. 39 was Fu Leng 2dot did happen 39 is toturi naseru, one of the 4 winds. Upon taking the thone, he kept the hantei name. This is where EE breaks off from L5R canon. This is the 'point of divergence.' They are both the sons of toturi. kaneka still gave up the right to be emperor for naseru to take the throne. he was still made to join the phoenix. he was still not allowed to take a name.
|
|
Kakita Shinji
Crane Clan
Laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone
Posts: 485
|
Post by Kakita Shinji on Jun 19, 2011 6:54:24 GMT -5
Arigato! That clears a lot, yet it again stalled my choice, as I was about to go for supporting Hantei. Now that Kaneka actually has strong grounds to throne it's debatable. I mean without them it was only honorable to support righeous Emperor. Samurai is not in position to question or judge his superior's actions.
|
|
|
Post by bodhibloodwave on Jun 19, 2011 7:26:21 GMT -5
I would actually argue that Kaneka does not have a strong claim to the throne as he renounced his claim to become emperor to let his brother ascend. As such the honorable thing would still be to support the rightful emperor and not join what might become the start of a civil war.
|
|
Kitsuki Yuushahime
Dragon Clan
This person sometimes posts things that are tl;dr
Courtier Magistrate Ambassador Daimyo
Posts: 1,140
|
Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Jun 19, 2011 7:28:37 GMT -5
Hmmm I wonder if Toturi the 3rd needs a wife? I wonder who would be suitable?
Oh, Senshi is in touch with Tomatsu, as is Setsuro. If they say that Tomatsu supports the Shogun then I would suggest that they are telling the truth. They all chat on skype afterall
|
|
Kakita Shinji
Crane Clan
Laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone
Posts: 485
|
Post by Kakita Shinji on Jun 19, 2011 7:28:51 GMT -5
I'd agree, that it would be reasonable to end Yobanjin threat before making such movies. Yet he's oldest son of Toturi, even if he didn't want that, he should be Emperor.
|
|
|
Post by bodhibloodwave on Jun 19, 2011 7:48:23 GMT -5
Age does not matter tho once claims have been renounced, unless we no longer value our oaths and honor. Once a person has renounced their claims then that is usually the end of the matter as they for all intents and purposes have no such claim any longer.
And I am somewhat curious, what authority does Kaneka have to restore a dynasty and declare himself the successor when we already have an emperor that came from the earlier mentioned dynasty.
|
|
|
Post by Shoju on Jun 19, 2011 7:51:05 GMT -5
And Shinji-san, had he not abdicated his bid for the throne in favor of his brother, I would agree with you 100%.
Unfortunately, Kaneka did abdicate his right to the throne openly, in favor of being Shogun and allowing his brother to lead the Empire. By doing so, and then by defying his brother, he has shown that he has no honor, he has no respect, and he is a fool.
|
|
|
Post by Shokuma on Jun 19, 2011 7:51:11 GMT -5
The problem is that Kaneka is an illegitimate son. The Empire couldn't make up it's mind on whether Tsudao should be passed over or not on account of being female (though the eldest child of Toturi and Kaede), so putting a bastard ahead of legitimate sons (especially since Toturi died before officially recognising Kaneka as one of his children) really causes political problems.
Should we be asking what cause Sezaru AND Kaneka to give up their claims in favour of the youngest child of Toturi? I've never seen an explanation on this...
|
|
Agasha Shodai
Phoenix Clan Mod
Phoenix Clan * The Void Master * Tensai * Taisa * Enlightened * Paragon of Compassion * Unique
Posts: 783
|
Post by Agasha Shodai on Jun 19, 2011 8:01:35 GMT -5
He may be the oldest, but he wasn't born to the Empress of Toturi I, which puts him on "second string" as it were. Naseru and Sezaru were the two with the strongest claim after their sister, Tsudao, died during the upheaval that occurred prior to the start of the game.
Per the wiki
After Hantei XL took the throne, he ordered Kaneka to sever his ties with his first army and join the Phoenix clan, which he grudgingly agreed to, but Kaneka was free to choose to join any of the families, just as Sezaru joined the Isawa. Shogun Kaneka CHOSE to join none of the Phoenix families, but set up residence in Shiro Shiba. The Phoenix Champion, Shiba Mirabu, permitted the Shiba family to join the ranks of the Shogun's new army if they so chose.
|
|
|
Post by Soshi Kiso on Jun 19, 2011 8:55:29 GMT -5
While Kaneka is a bastard child, did not Naseru make the proclamation to fully recognize Kaneka as a true son of Toturi? This occured at the end of the 4 Winds book series. Thus saying he's "second tier" after Sezaru and Naseru becomes a bit more murky.
|
|
|
Post by markus on Jun 19, 2011 10:24:53 GMT -5
I initially saw things as Tadaka put them so aptly earlier: No matter what I personally think, the Celestial Order must be upheld, and as long as Naseru does not openly act against the Empire it is my duty to support him. However, upon closer inspection it turns out, Naseru is _not_ asserting his right as Emperor, he seeks support in the name of the Hantei dynasty. Feebleness aside, to me both the Steel Chrysanthemum and the possession of Hantei XXXIX clearly show, that the rule of Hantei is no longer the will of the kami. That doesn't mean Kaneka's rule is the will of the kami, but it does mean, that for reasons of his own, Hantei Naseru chose not to make a stronger claim than Kaneka. They both claim the throne in the name of their respective dynasties. And that in turn means we have to make up our own minds, and pray to the kami we make the right choice.
|
|
|
Post by bodhibloodwave on Jun 19, 2011 11:04:11 GMT -5
But Markus, Hantei Naseru was Toturi Naseru before adopting the name of Hantei Naseru rather then Toturi the third to honor his foster father, it would make no sense for him to make a call for samurai to support the Toturi dynasty when there is no such dynasty any longer.
He is now Hantei Naseru and the rightful emperor, as such he is indeed asserting his right as emperor when calling for all loyal and honorable samurai to pledge loyalty to the Hantei rather then the usurper Kaneka who is trying to revive a extinguished dynasty
Additionally Naseru does have a stronger claim as Emperor because he IS the emperor, whereas Kaneka relinquished his claim for the throne to let his brother ascend to it, meaning that Kaneka no longer has any claim to it.
|
|
Bayushi Senshi
Scorpion Clan
Scorpion Clan * Clan Champion * Samurai * Kensai * Experienced * Loyal * Unique
Posts: 1,891
|
Post by Bayushi Senshi on Jun 19, 2011 12:56:40 GMT -5
OOC:Tomatsu just got back from his honeymoon and just finished driving across the US. I have been on the phone and on skype with him on the matter. He supports Kaneka, I don't blame you for not wanting to trust me however.
IC: how dare you call me a liar! rabble rabble rabble.... (jk)
|
|
Akodo Kenzo
Lion Clan
Lion Clan * Bushi * Tactician * Shireikan of the Akodo Army * Ambassador to the Scorpion Clan
Posts: 371
|
Post by Akodo Kenzo on Jun 19, 2011 14:25:27 GMT -5
OOC:Tomatsu just got back from his honeymoon and just finished driving across the US. I have been on the phone and on skype with him on the matter. He supports Kaneka, I don't blame you for not wanting to trust me however. IC: how dare you call me a liar! rabble rabble rabble.... (jk) Well congratulations to him! I'm still waiting for an official pronouncement, though.
|
|