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Post by markus on Jul 25, 2011 1:56:52 GMT -5
Fix contests Right now it's impossible to win if the relevant skill is not a class skill and one has 200+ in that skill. In order to bring this somewhat down, I suggest capping the nonrandom part at 100. The maximum score should be equivalent to 100% of the person with the highest skill rating. So, if e.g. someone has a 500 points, that person gets 100 non-random skill points. Someone with merely 50 points gets 10 non-random points. 200 would get you 40 non-random. That way base skill still counts and _in the long run_ can't be overcome. The investment pays off. At the same time, I now becomes _possible_ that the high-skill person has to put in some _effort_ (i.e. several attempts, farming, time) before making the top 10.
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Post by sprinkles on Jul 26, 2011 15:23:30 GMT -5
I am hoping this post clarifies some things and creates an open and respectful place to discuss these subjects. Let start by saying I am not upset with anyone or their opinion. We should all understand each other and realize that we disagree at times. So everyone on both sides of this argument please take a breath and start having fun. (This is a game after all). My first character was a Unicorn Shinjo. He was modeled to be a horse archer. As such his Kyujutsu was high. I won the competition in Winter Court. Th e next day I suppakued. I liked my character but I wanted to play Spider. I REALLY wanted to play Spider. So after winning I started over. (I believe someone later came and beat the score I had set but I'm not sure.) My new character is my current one Chuda Sprinkles. I wanted to have alot of fun with this character. At the time the new board was just starting and although I was against it at first I soon began to like it. I decided from an rp stand point I wanted to make a run for Ebony Champion. I however did not try any means of obtaining this title as I was seeing how the "Self Titled Jade Champion" was doing. Instead I decided to wait for an Spellcraft competition and crush everyone. And hope to obtain it with my clans board. The Spider Private boards have known of me pooling points for a while. I didn't have to pool points but I did to leave myself the flexibility to take on any missions I wanted to but did not match skill for without spending a single point more than I needed to. As such I am currently second in the current competition. Some may disagree with this action and I am ok with that. I understand it even. It was my decision to do this. I respect all those that wish the system was different and I offer this thread as a place to discuss this peacefully. My opinion on this is I honestly don't care either way. If the system was different I still would have dumped all my points into Spellcraft. I may have lost the opportunity to vote on a few issues because of low other scores but that would have been the price I paid. Sorry this post was so long but I wanted to explain my actions and opinions and let everyone voice theirs in a respectful way. Both sides remember: HAVE FUN!!!!
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Bayushi Hisa
Scorpion Clan
Samurai * Courtier * Dark Paragon of Will * Loyal
Posts: 479
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Post by Bayushi Hisa on Jul 26, 2011 15:34:21 GMT -5
It is fine by me. Looking at the best items thread you will have all the stats needed to equip every item in the game around level 55. After that pooling points or dumping all your points into a school skill to be the best is pretty much par for the course. It either focus your character on your school skills at that point or build a generalist. It is the players decision to build their character a particular way and that is fine.
I would only be angry if you now sep Sprinkles and create a new character to beat the next tournament.
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Post by sprinkles on Jul 26, 2011 15:38:35 GMT -5
I honestly don't think it's possible to create a new character and win a tournament. I'm going to loose this one because I am too low a level. The longest playing players have an advantage there.
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Post by tadakasan on Jul 26, 2011 19:44:42 GMT -5
*nods* It might be possible to make a character and win a tournament if you focused on something really obscure like Intimidation or Sailing and did almost nothing else. Even then it would be a long-shot to compete with a long playing Mantis.
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Post by Soshi Kiso on Jul 26, 2011 19:46:38 GMT -5
Ironically I was trying to think of the logistics of an intimidation contest yesterday.
Lots of shouting at poor peasants.
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Toku Hirotomo
Monkey Clan
Bushi Paragon of Compassion Clan Champion Toturi's Army
Posts: 793
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Post by Toku Hirotomo on Jul 26, 2011 20:30:22 GMT -5
Depends on the competition we may not know what Winter Court will entail, if we have the ones we had last winter court then yeah we know what it will be. I've set to making a Kenjutsu based character, but I spent too much in investigation. Depending on the outcome of the war, I may end up with another character, but I have no focus of what I'll be. I don't favor spellcraft, I don't much like playing shugenja, but maybe I could give Yuushahime a run for courtier.
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Post by Soshi Kiso on Jul 26, 2011 21:46:56 GMT -5
Well, it also generally depends on where Winter Court will be held, which will also depend on who wins the war, biggest support, etc... I could even see some lobbying involved for the honor.
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Post by Shoju on Jul 27, 2011 6:45:21 GMT -5
Well Markus, I personally think there is a problem with contests as well, but I think that we see different problems.
It doesn't make sense to have a chance to win a spellcraft competition if you aren't a shugenja. So the class skill makes sense.
Capping the skill like that is an interesting take on it, but the computations on that make it a little fuzzy to do so.
The bigger problem now is pooling points. With marriages allowing you to change who and what you are, you can now blow through the levels and acrue close to 500 skill points.
Then you find out what the competition is, marry into a clan to change your role from samurai / courtier / shugenja etc... so that you now have the appropriate class skills and dump your points.
I personally feel that from 5 days prior to a competition to the completion of a competition we should cap the amount of character points you can spend per day. I'm thinking 16 character points per day.
That means that if a contest runs 10 day, you could still drop 160 skill points or 320 skill into the skill for the competition.
That is a large swing of skill you are able to pull off, but takes out some of the power gaming / meta gaming aspects of pooling points, and I think would strike a balance between those who dislike the idea of points pooling to win contests, and those who don't have a problem with it.
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Bayushi Hiryu
Scorpion Clan
Scorpion Clan Ninja*Dragon Clan Ally*Samurai*Courtier* Tactician*Chrysanthemum*Inexp Hiryu*Unique
Posts: 217
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Post by Bayushi Hiryu on Jul 27, 2011 7:41:49 GMT -5
Since we are capping the number of dice Rings can bring into contests, I would personally be in favor of also capping the fixed bonus provided by Skill points.
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Post by Shoju on Jul 27, 2011 8:47:41 GMT -5
Mod Note:
In consolidating posts, Markus' post ended up at the top of this thread. Sprinkles Post is the first post that was "intended" for this thread, but I'm consolidating all talk on the issue in this thread.
I don't think that is a solution either Hiryu. You should be able to get credit for every single character point you spend.
Capping rings makes the game fair. As we have seen in this competition, you can compete with the "big boys" as early as level 128.
Sprinkles is level 128. Koichi, Kiso, Shodai, and myself are all level 170+
Sprinkles is currently second, and I'm assuming he can still make a push to catch koichi due to the difference in leveling times from 128 to 180ish.
I don't have a problem with people stacking a skill to the moon. I do have a problem with it being done when they find out what the tournament is, and the problem is exacerbated by the ability to marry yourself into a new clan, or join the shadowlands, and then change class based on what the competition is.
That scenario is a problem IMO.
I don't care that I lost. I'm a little bummed by "how much" I lost by, yes. I don't care that Koichi and Sprinkles were able to post 800+ scores. I do on the other hand care that the competitions do feel like they are less about planning, and more about hording. there is definitely a competitive loss when that is what the competition is reduced to IMO.
The basis of my problem is that this takes the idea of a skill competition and removes the "skill planning" and replaces with "point hording"
That, is not a competition IMO. People have said, "well, I was planning on spending those points on Spellcraft anyway".
And my response is: "That's fine. Moving forward if a change like this would go into effect, your results wouldn't end up any different."
As I have stated multiple times before, my posts on this subject are not meant as personal attacks, they aren't meant to suggest that someone is cheating. What has been done is allowed under the rules of the game, and while I might not personally like it, that doesn't mean that it was "wrong" for the people to do so. I'm not condemning those people for doing so, I'm discussing the problem as a whole.
If you take offense to my comments, I'm sorry, that isn't how they are intended. You can feel free to PM me about it, and we can talk.
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Shosuro Aroru
Scorpion Clan
Scorpion Clan Ninja * Duelist
Posts: 625
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Post by Shosuro Aroru on Jul 27, 2011 10:32:17 GMT -5
...To me this falls under the same heading of the infamy/taint missions. Other people don't play like I do or like how I feel the game "should" be played and I want them punished for doing so. The competitions themselves are already inherently unfair. You have no shot if you don't have that skill as a class skill. So now you're talking about the narrow margin between members of similar classes. Even with re-marrying it's not like someone can pool 200 points, blow them all on a competition to win, then pool 200 more points for the next competition that they marry into to get that class skill. It's the law of diminishing returns, you can only level up so much between competitions, each competition having less and less levels gained between them. If one person was winning every contest because of this, it would be a problem. However, since they aren't and this competition is being won by someone who didn't even pool all their points to dump into it I see a non-issue here that people just want to whine about.
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Shagi the Mad
Crane Clan
Fallen Crane * Scout * Mad * Shadowlands * Experienced 4 Hiruma Shagi
Posts: 180
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Post by Shagi the Mad on Jul 27, 2011 10:32:50 GMT -5
I think that keeping a reserve of points in hand is necessary in this game. I had a devil of a time getting to Mountain Watch Keep after the requirement to get there went to Battle 200. If I'd kept more points unspent, I'd have been able to get there quicker and maybe I wouldn't have been left with 47 Captured Sashimono when they became unavailable. But that's my fault for not playing smarter.
What happens if I should need 200 Hunting to get to a location in the Shinomen? What happens if I should need 200 Shadowlands to get to a location beyond the Wall? What happens if I should need 200 Stealth to get to the Imperial Court if it's under seige?
With my current stack of points, I could do any one, probably two, of those. But I have no way of knowing in advance which, if any, of those is likely to happen.
In general, I have a problem with any proposal to restrict me on how and when I spend my points. To do that in response to this competition seems to me to be a knee-jerk reaction. Or "hard cases make bad laws," if you prefer.
If the problem is making competitions competitive, then just add an equivalent of "weight categories." Whether by level, ring, class or skill. (Level presents a little problem, as I remember from spending 10 days not levelling at the Topaz Championship, just so I could finish the thing without levelling beyond 20).
I must confess, the concept of changing clans and then spending points worries me a little. But since that should be a one-time deal (or two-time if you both marry and swear fealty to the Spider), I don't think that's likely to be a common problem.
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Post by sprinkles on Jul 27, 2011 10:40:51 GMT -5
I've been considering this problem and have some ideas outside the box. Rather than limit anything what about opening more things up. Such as picking class skills upon character creation to model a character exactly how you want them. And have more actions that require higher level skills. I know that creates more work for Jay/Allison but what if it was single actions in clan that allowed for farming actions. Example Spy on diplomats : requires Stealth 200; drops blackmail. That makes people want to spend their points in more areas. You won't stop someone from doing what Shoju is speaking of but it limits it due to everyone having actions to dump points into.
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Post by Shoju on Jul 27, 2011 11:14:47 GMT -5
@sprinkles This is a fantastic idea.
More actions that require incredibly large skill checks would create a situation where people are spending their points. I like this solution better than anything I have seen proposed yet, actually.
Because then, it is a real trade off. Do you want to do the "high end" jobs Or do you want to save for a competition?
And if the jobs had attractive drops rates of key items, or of new / interesting items, it would certainly make it more advantageous for the players to spend their points.
@shagi. With my "thought", The only time that you would be "restricted" on spending points would be when a competition is going on. This would require competitions to be shorter, and not run for a month plus, but a change I could live with.
I will admit, with Sprinkles Idea, I would rather see it implemented as it has less restrictions, and promotes spending points in a way that doesn't 'limit' the way people play the game.
@aroru. Lets please leave statements like "Other people don't play like I do or like how I feel the game "should" be played and I want them punished for doing so."
"I see a non-issue here that people just want to whine about."
Out of this. These types of comments will quickly turn a civil conversation into an argument. No one is saying these people should be punished for pooling their points. I haven't. I have actually gone out of my way to express that I'm not mad at these people, that I'm not trying to personally attack these people.
I have however brought up competitive balance. I'm sorry, I think that being able to win a competition and then in 6-7 months be able to be in contention to win a competition in a completely different skill with a completely different character is a situation that can lead to abuse. As the game progresses, we as a community should be able to look at things and say "This isn't good for the game."
I am 100% confident that someone could start leveling today, pool points, and with good planning win a competition at winter court, then turn around, seppuku, and do the same in 6-7 months at another competition.
The reason is simple. We are building quite the compendium of knowledge and information here, and the game is getting bigger, both in terms of players and content. The first person to hit 200 fate was well north of level 100 when it happened. I hit 200 fate the same day I hit level 100, and with the new jobs, and items added to the game, I'm pretty sure it could happen faster. The game is speeding up both because of content available and the community pulling together and creating a knowledge base.
These things are not bad. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that at all. I think having Ring lists, and job lists, and maps, and drop locations are all FANTASTIC additions to the game.
The side effect of these is, that it will allow for meta / power gaming to creep into the game in areas. I'm not interested in seeing that in this game.
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