|
Post by sprinkles on Aug 10, 2011 14:02:50 GMT -5
I will hereby be known as the Dark Oracle of Sugar Coating!
|
|
|
Post by Utaku Kasumi on Aug 10, 2011 14:03:45 GMT -5
*slaps everyone around*
EVEN in OUR history... (correct me if I am wrong) we had a saying about... hmm... killing a messenger. Envys were messengers - they were killed for the news they were bringing. Don't make a fuss... Maybe in OUR eyes this is an execution. But we forgot about something REALLY important. Rokugan is different. They think in a different way. Something that to us is weird... to them is normal. Something that to us is normal... to them it would be... insane, weird, inhuman, sick (add anything you want here). If I am correct, evey envoy bringing news/trying to convince other side etc... was ready to die. It was a great honor to be one... but also there was at least 50% chances to die. Death on DUTY. Whatever. So shush! And give me cookies. With strawberries and gello...
|
|
Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
|
Post by Tamori Manji on Aug 10, 2011 14:08:11 GMT -5
I agree with your arguments, but still, seppuku is an honorable death and they all had the right to be assisted by a second man, as demanded by tradition.
You may argue that the seppuku itself didn't reflect the "wishes" of the player base, because of how the action was worded, but you can't argue the resulting honorable deaths. Of course, it would've been better if the action and the results fitted one another better, but we may always propose polls to try and understand what motivated the voters, the call for blood or honor. And, next time, we may try and bring the issue before Jay-sama before the votes are finished.
Personally, I agree with the resulting action, because of what the Spider stands for and their relationship with Jigoku, but I too disagree with the idea of execution. There's a slight but fundamental difference between offering an honorable death and executing unarmed envoys. Some may argue that, in the end, its all the same, but I would argue that the intentions behind an act are sometimes as important as the act itself.
[EDIT] Kasumi-san, yes, there are precedents for envoy killing in many points of our world's history. But the action itself was always considered to be something of a bad taste, as is killing guests in your own house. It happened and it happens, but you can't expect ppl to trust you after that. Of course, if you are after war, not trust, you could care less about it, but otherwise, I would say it's advisable to maintain these courtesies.
|
|
Agasha Shodai
Phoenix Clan Mod
Phoenix Clan * The Void Master * Tensai * Taisa * Enlightened * Paragon of Compassion * Unique
Posts: 783
|
Post by Agasha Shodai on Aug 10, 2011 14:12:28 GMT -5
Kasumi's right. The only messengers exempt from the "kill the messenger" rule are the Miya...
But only if they aren't dealing with someone of higher status.
|
|
|
Post by Shoju on Aug 10, 2011 14:20:02 GMT -5
I agree with your arguments, but still, seppuku is an honorable death and they all had the right to be assisted by a second man, as demanded by tradition. You may argue that the seppuku itself didn't reflect the "wishes" of the player base, because of how the action was worded, but you can't argue the resulting honorable deaths. The argument that the action didn't reflect the wishes has nothing to do with the seppuku portion. I would say you should go back and read this whole thread, and see what I have already brought up as the issues. It has nothing to do with the result of the vote, and everything to do with what the envoy was doing. Thrak is arguing that it was wrong for them to be demanded to die. And most Spider, because of our perspective, agree. Those were our brothers. Our Fellow Spider who were ordered to death. You are arguing your side without understanding the other side then. You are saying that it was right because of our taint and jigoku ties and what not. And Thrak is calling it murder because that was our brother, our friend, our envoy who was ordered to die simply for speaking. The difference between being ordered to death and executing envoys is one of perspective. You feel that they were given an honorable death. We feel that what happened was akin to murdering unarmed men. As you said, the emperor has the right to order any man to seppuku. That would make him responsible for the death of our now dead friend, and in our eyes, a murderer. EDIT: Yes, Every envoy has a chance of dying based on the words / news they carry. And if you look back in rokugani history I'm sure you will find times where that dead envoy led to wars/battles/skirmishes/angry feelings. All because someone decided to kill the envoy for the words he carried from his lord.
|
|
Daigotsu Thrakhath
Spider Clan
Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken
Posts: 600
|
Post by Daigotsu Thrakhath on Aug 10, 2011 14:25:25 GMT -5
To be fair, Thrakhath knows full well exactly what went down and why, and how legitimate everything was. If he were to actually say something like that in-character, it would be strictly to incite violence against the Emperor and to sway people to his side.
|
|
|
Post by Utaku Kasumi on Aug 10, 2011 14:36:28 GMT -5
[EDIT] Kasumi-san, yes, there are precedents for envoy killing in many points of our world's history. But the action itself was always considered to be something of a bad taste, as is killing guests in your own house. It happened and it happens, but you can't expect ppl to trust you after that. Of course, if you are after war, not trust, you could care less about it, but otherwise, I would say it's advisable to maintain these courtesies. Of course. But what I mean is... this is not something unusual, even to us (European, because US history is rather... short ). Killing an envoy means... war, usually - that one already pointed. But what to do... when both Hantei and Toturi did the same? Who do we trust now? And... tell me - wasn't that "OUR" choice? It was we, the players, who voted (I have my hands clean - as I did NOT vote for any option).
|
|
Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
|
Post by Tamori Manji on Aug 10, 2011 14:57:03 GMT -5
The argument that the action didn't reflect the wishes has nothing to do with the seppuku portion. I would say you should go back and read this whole thread, and see what I have already brought up as the issues. It has nothing to do with the result of the vote, and everything to do with what the envoy was doing. Thrak is arguing that it was wrong for them to be demanded to die. And most Spider, because of our perspective, agree. Those were our brothers. Our Fellow Spider who were ordered to death. I understand your perspective pretty well and have already read your arguments. Respectfully, I must say again that offering seppuku is very different than ordering the execution of an envoy (I'm saying this as a Rokugani). And, if you say that your associates didn't think about this possibility, either you trust the abilities for intrigue and infiltration of your agents too much or discredit the corrupting influence of Jigoku (after all, your associates claim Fu Leng as their Kami and we know full well what it was and what it represented) in your midst (because I don't see you as short sighted, so, that's not an option) and I wouldn't know which is worse. I will leave, however, the accusations of Maho and other perversions to my betters, like the Kuroiban and the Kitsuki. I must say that I took special care in measuring the arguments, especially because my Clan supports Toturi (although I'm of the opinion that a civil war is the last thing Rokugan needs right now). And, although I seek to understand your claims and do understand your indignation at this result, I don't agree with you. If your group intended to submit itself to the Empire, it should be prepared to adhere to its laws and decisions, even when unfavorable to you. The Emperor rules for all, not for a single group. Also, your envoys died with honor, doing their duty, no greater feat can be expected of a samurai, as a Lion would gladly tell you. Saying otherwise would only prove that it's you who doesn't understand Bushido. Completely on the OoC side, a good example of this in the "official" timeline is when Daigotsu went to ask Empress Iweko I for the Spider to be recognized as a Great Clan. As a result, she offered him to recognize his claim if he severed his son's connection to Jigoku and commited seppuku. He accepted and, as a result, the Spider was recognized as a Great Clan, with all of its untainted members being integrated into the Celestial Order and the Empire. EDIT.: Also, as Kasumi-san pointed out, Toturi did exactly the same thing with your envoys.
|
|
|
Post by Shoju on Aug 10, 2011 15:14:21 GMT -5
I understand your perspective pretty well and have already read your arguments. Respectfully, I must say again that offering seppuku is very different than ordering the execution of an envoy (I'm saying this as a Rokugani). And, if you say that your associates didn't think about this possibility, either you trust the abilities for intrigue and infiltration of your agents too much or discredit the corrupting influence of Jigoku (after all, your associates claim Fu Leng as their Kami and we know full well what it was and what it represented) in your midst (because I don't see you as short sighted, so, that's not an option) and I wouldn't know which is worse. I will leave, however, the accusations of Maho and other perversions to my betters, like the Kuroiban and the Kitsuki. Then you are unwilling to see it from our perspective. Speaking even as a rokugani, if you can't see how the opposing side would be outraged by even the ordered seppuku of their envoy, you aren't looking at the other perspectives. taint and connection jigoku included, If you order my envoy to die, don't be surprised when I'm frothing at the mouth for the chance to attack you in return. The emperor(s) thought they would be honorable and order seppuku? Huh... So, you are going to legitimize my claim as a samurai, but then not legitimize what I stand for. And then feign surprise when we are infuriated by the actions? You want us to bend to your rules and laws and customs and traditions yet not accept us. Then, you want to tell me that the emperor rules for all and not a single group. It sounds like I'm supposed to bow at the feet of a man who won't even accept me, and then be fine when he passes judgement leading to my death. Can you not see the hypocrisy? The difference here is, the seppuku resulted in legitimization, while this seppuku only made enemies. I don't recognize the claims of usurpers, nor do I even want to recognize that we sent an envoy to him. That is part of my problem with the process. But to maintain adherence to the story, we'll just stick to the "I don't recognize a traitorous usurping dog, and plan to see him suffer in the pits of Jigoku for his actions."
|
|
Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
|
Post by Tamori Manji on Aug 10, 2011 15:21:20 GMT -5
The difference here is, the seppuku resulted in legitimization, while this seppuku only made enemies. I don't see your associates running to sever their connections with Jigoku. Don't compare the death of a leader and the acceptance of untainted people, willing to become samurai, with the death of envoys of Fu Leng. EDIT: I must say that our different arguments express very well the difference between Bushido and Shourido.
|
|
Takezo
Dragon Clan
Shugyosha, Loyal retainer of Toturi, Dragon Champion-in-exile
Posts: 415
|
Post by Takezo on Aug 10, 2011 15:41:12 GMT -5
Takezo"
"I would have to concur that seppuku is not a fitting end for the Spider "envoy" - simple killing, as though of a cur dog, is more apropos.
Seppuku is an honor that must be earned by a samurai, earned by conducting his life and affairs in parallel with the precepts of bushido.
Criminals - like wild animals - are (or in any case, should be) simply put down."
|
|
Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
|
Post by Tamori Manji on Aug 11, 2011 0:02:05 GMT -5
Takezo" "I would have to concur that seppuku is not a fitting end for the Spider "envoy" - simple killing, as though of a cur dog, is more apropos. Seppuku is an honor that must be earned by a samurai, earned by conducting his life and affairs in parallel with the precepts of bushido. Criminals - like wild animals - are (or in any case, should be) simply put down." Takezo-san, with all due respect, although I grasp your meaning, I think you're much too unfair with the wild animals, as being wild is not a synonym nor excuse for being rabid. From where I come from, the children of Chikushudo walk beside us as brethren, often displaying more honor than some who call themselves samurai. And certainly more than any of Fu Leng's rabid get.
|
|
Takezo
Dragon Clan
Shugyosha, Loyal retainer of Toturi, Dragon Champion-in-exile
Posts: 415
|
Post by Takezo on Aug 11, 2011 0:09:25 GMT -5
Your distinction is wise and has merit, Kitsune-san. I stand corrected and clarified - rabid animals, then, not wild.
|
|
Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
|
Post by Tamori Manji on Aug 11, 2011 0:33:08 GMT -5
Thank you for your understanding Takezo-san. As always, it's an honor and a pleasure to talk with the wise Dragon.
|
|
Daigotsu Daisuke
Spider Clan
Former Lion Bushi - Newly Initiated Maho Tsukai
Posts: 330
|
Post by Daigotsu Daisuke on Aug 11, 2011 10:06:56 GMT -5
Frankly, let the spider come. I dont care whether we offended tainted rabid animals due to the fact that they are just far too low on the celestial order to register as creatures with feelings. Compassion is a virtue of bushido, but something are not worth having compassion for. Especially an animal that would bite its masters hand time and time again. Better to get it over with and kill it quickly. Why this hasn't been done yet is beyond me. As Rokugani, members of the celestial order and the celestial betters over those tainted .... things, it is our duty to cut them down.
OoC: Sorry Shoju while you're trying to play the path of spider redemption there are some things that just aren't gonna fly to most rokugani as im sure you understand. Its just not in Jin's character to allow a tainted creature into rokugan without killing it first. As a player i hope you're not offended when we speak like this as lets be honest you picked a spider character. While you can try to make the shades of gray argument, to jin... taint is taint. You have it? then you best go die helping the crab kill other tainted things and hope that your sacrifice earns you enough honor to be regarded as the most enlightened of tainted things.
|
|