Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Oct 5, 2011 11:33:59 GMT -5
Shigekazu, you just forgot to mention that the Dragon army, who has not engaged the Lion yet, may very well turn around and attack Kaneka while he's vulnerable crossing the river. The Dragon situation is delicate, but not without solution. Mostly because the Lion armies were already involved in two conflicts and are far away from Swift Sword Castle (the Crane has but to cross their own provinces to arrive, while the Lion, now that they lost Permission City, can be harassed by the Emerald Champion, the Phoenix and Crane forces when they try to move their army back to fight the Dragon).
About the Crab, I do agree with you, at least during the beginning of the conflict. Now they are fighting both against the Crane and the Spider (and, maybe, against the Scorpion soon). That should slow their progress.
EDIT: Just to clarify, when I've said the Crane had just to cross their own provinces to arrive, I was speaking about Seawatch Castle and Lonely Shore City.
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Post by Soshi Kiso on Oct 5, 2011 11:55:29 GMT -5
I have to agree with Shigekazu. Given the fact the crab are still fooling around with LSC...I feel that battle should be done and the Crab moved on to the next city (pending they won)
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Kitsuki Zatoichi
Dragon Clan
* Blind * Justicar * Enlightened * Dragon Ambassador to Crane Clan
Posts: 13
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Post by Kitsuki Zatoichi on Oct 5, 2011 12:12:52 GMT -5
All your points are valid Jay and I agree with everything you've said (Kaneka's army moved, if I'm not mistaken, three times in order to cross the Unicorn provinces). About the Dragon situation, I would like to ask the same question as Kasumi, should we just post our opinions here or can we discuss it between ourselves and either post the answer here or send it to you? I'm thinking that, if necessary, one of the Hantei supporting Dragons, like me, can open a topic and/or a poll in the Dragon forums and let it run for a week. After the time is over, we post our answer. My personal opinion is that, if Kaneka's advance is publicly known, the Dragon army would first do exactly the actions you just posted. That is, send scouts off and check the Lion's defenses, after all, they were just fighting in Permission City and a huge part of their army is now in Toshi Ranbo. Depending on the result of these actions, which will determine the success of the Dragon intelligence gathering and skirmishing capabilities, the Dragon army may: *Position itself with disadvantage between Kaneka and the Lion, which will put the Dragon in a very tricky situation; *Find a breach in the Lion's defenses and try to quickly storm the castle before Kaneka's army arrives, using skirmishers to delay their crossing of the river; *Try and attack Kaneka directly while his armies are crossing the river, leaving skirmishers and scouts behind the main Dragon forces, to delay Lion attacks. There are no easy solutions in this case and the next moves would depend, as always, on the results of the vote. I imagine that, once the Emperor is secure, maybe the Emerald Champion may decide to harass Crossroads Castle in order to try and divert some of the Lion's attention from the Dragon. And the Phoenix may attack Toshi Ranbo, which would prevent retaliation from the bulk of the Lion's army. But, without the votes, this is just speculation from my part. I hope these ideas can help you a bit and I'm sure the Lion players will be kind enough to better point which flaws in these actions can be explored by Kaneka. Sorry for the wall of text. EDIT: One of my ideas is exactly the same as what Zatoichi just said. And Keisuke, it may be because of the skirmishes. It probably means that there are small scale battles being fought already. Also, I'm sure there will be other opportunities for both sides to gather banners and brilliant victories in order to acquire the Taisa position. Tamori Manji-Sama couldn't be more brilliant. Toturi's Army can be stormed while crossing the river, or maybe have the disadvantage attacking the Fortress. The Dragon blades shouldn't be underestimated. "The victory can be found in the path of courage and wisdom samurai, not only in strenght and rage" Kitsuki Zatoichi, blind samurai
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Post by Mirumoto Shigekazu on Oct 5, 2011 12:25:53 GMT -5
Ok, lets assume that Dragon will call off the assault on the province, turn and try to capture all river crossings. They already moved far from the river and entered enemy territory. In this situation Dragons can move quickly and make their back vulnerable for any Lion counterattack. They can also form some rear guard which will make their advance slower but safer.
We do not know on which side of the river Kaneka is marching. But he lead in fact two armies: his own army of veterans from fights with Yobanjin and Unicorn Army. He can send cavalry forward on north side to secure river crossings before Dragon can reach them and march with the rest of the army on south side to face the Dragon.
Assuming Kaneka would do that even forced march of the Dragon forces would not let them capture river crossings before cavalry army. The only option for the Dragon then is charge on Unicorn army before they fortify their positions. Of course they risk that Kaneka will arrive during fight and with Hantei forces split by river they would be easily defeated. But waiting for him is not an option since then he will have two fresh, veteran armies against one army with broken lines of supply.
The only hope which I see for the Hantei Dragons now (since they advanced into Lion territory and has no hope for capturing river crossings) is use of the Tamori shugenja in battle - they can sacrifice their lives to cast very powerful spells to save Dragon army from being tottally crushed.
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Oct 5, 2011 13:16:44 GMT -5
I agree with both Shigekazu and Zatoichi. Shigekazu's points are all valid, expressing possible actions for Lion's and Kaneka's troops and the problems the Dragon may face during the battles. Of course, which of these actions will actually happen and which sides will better seize the opportunities presented is to be decided by the player's votes.
I also agree that it's about time for the battle in LSC to be concluded, with new options being presented to the sides involved based on the voting result. It started shortly after TR and PC and, now that those two are done, it's time for it too move on. If possible, it's conclusion within a week would be most appropriate.
Asides from that, thanks again Jay, not only for the great job but also for making it clear that you pay attention our comments and for encouraging us to express our opinions.
EDIT: There's another option that I almost forgot about, the Badger. If they are to follow the Monkey's example and be allowed a vote to join the war, they will, necessarily, come either through Unicorn or Dragon lands, thus having to cross the Drowned Merchant's River. Their forces could really tip the scales of the conflict.
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Kitsuki Yuushahime
Dragon Clan
This person sometimes posts things that are tl;dr
Courtier Magistrate Ambassador Daimyo
Posts: 1,140
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Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Oct 5, 2011 18:45:39 GMT -5
I don't think the Badger would help that much but it's a nice point to remember. Thanks for the update Jay. Agreed that the Crab siege should be resolved asap.
As a Toturi Dragon, do take my comments with a pinch of salt - I think the Dragon would realise their situation and do their best to move to somewhere more tactically viable. The Dragon are cautious and not stupid. There have been MANY instances of Dragon armies just appearing somewhere and attacking. Why can't the Dragon just summon a fog and mysteriously appear somewhere else? A province over, maybe somewhere deeper in Lion lands, or back on the other side of the river? I realise they have to attack the Lion because of their vote but it doesn't mean they have to attack the nearest Lion castle that has a reinforcement army marching on it. I have faith in my Clan's military prowess but they wouldn't foolish assault even a weakened Lion with Kaneka's army and the Unicorn armies marching on them. That would be foolish. No, I imagine they would attack a Lion province more out of the way, somewhere not directly en route to the Capital. That would force Kaneka to decide about moving to the capital, attacking the Dragon or splitting his force to do both.
Perhaps the Dragon moves so far have all been one big feint? Appear to be attacking the Swift Sword Castle so the Lion move to defend it and then have the main force appear somewhere else in Lion lands and attack that.
Due to the Dragon vote I do not think the Dragon would turn around and march on Kaneka's army. That option wasn't available in the vote. However, another idea would be to present 3 options to Hantei Dragon...
1. Stay where we are and continue to attack the Lion here 2. Turn around and attack Kaneka 3. Appear somewhere else in Lion lands and attack them to split the enemy forces. Or, for a safer choice, turn around and go home/join up with Phoenix or Crane troops
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Tamori Koichi
Dragon Clan
Dragon Clan * Shugenja * Earth * Void * Yamabushi * Duelist
Posts: 228
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Post by Tamori Koichi on Oct 5, 2011 20:08:22 GMT -5
Takes all comments into account. Will try to post later when I get home from work. So far I don't really see the problem, or at least I don't see it as something that the Dragon Council hasn't really taken into consideration in our plans already. Will consult allies again first before posting. For now, Crush the Lion!!! ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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Akodo Taiyo
Lion Clan
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Posts: 196
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Post by Akodo Taiyo on Oct 5, 2011 20:11:25 GMT -5
Remember, the Lion armies have nearly double the number of samurai as any other army, except for the Unicorn. There is no reason at all to assume that our entire army of a half a million samurai (never mind our ashigaru) were all committed at TR and PR. Leaving our borders open to attack would have been a supremely poor strategic decision, and not at all in line with the thinking of the Empire's premier military leaders. PR was effectively traded for TR, shrinking our northern border but giving us much stronger ground to defend against the Emerald Champion. When the Dragon probe Castle of the Swift Sword, they will find a well armed, well supplied and battle ready army chomping at the bit to get in on some of their actions.
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Post by Togashi Homsar on Oct 5, 2011 21:12:57 GMT -5
Heh. You said probe.
If I had my druthers, I'd attack the Lion from the south. They'd never expect it!
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Suzume Satoru
Sparrow Clan
* Sparrow Clan Champion * Suzume Family Daimyo * Warrior Poet *
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Post by Suzume Satoru on Oct 6, 2011 7:21:39 GMT -5
There is no reason at all to assume that our entire army of a half a million samurai (never mind our ashigaru) were all committed at TR and PR. I am skeptical that the Lion Army has half a million true samurai within it. First off, I find no reference to the composition of the numbers of any given army (Samurai vs Ashigaru) for any clan. I just find reference that says that the Lion at some points have had an army pushing 500,000 soldiers. And the Emerald Empire books does explicitly state that typically only half an army is composed of samurai (and in some cases, less). [This is a debate held many times in my experience, and invariably, Lions tend to want to say soldiers only applies to Samurai] Second, what do you think the ratio of Samurai to Peasants is for Rokugan? 1:10? 1:20? Let's go with the ultra-conservative 1:10 ratio- that puts the Lion Clan's total population at about 5.5 million, and that's just based off the Military alone, and doesn't include the non military samurai of the Lion Clan. This is the part that makes me skeptical that the Lion military is 500,000 samurai. Rokugan is a feudal society (which isn't conducive to high populations) based on not modern agriculture (and the benifits of modern transportation). I know rice is and has been one of the most efficient food sources, but I am hard pressed to believe that almost 6 million people live and subsist in a space that is smaller than Georgia, USA, without the benefits of being an island nation (ie, no easy access to food from the sea) or modern agriculture. And if this is the case, then the Lion had best resolve this conflict soon, because the outside sources they would need to use for food (ie, trade with the crane or scorpion) are certainly not available to them at the moment. Stockpile or not, the Lion will be in for some rough winters if this war drags out. I know trying to use logic in a setting with magical samurai may seem odd, but if we're being asked to use logic to define our expectations of army movements and conflict (ie, Lion have so many samurai, no way anything would be under defended), then logic should also be used to try and reason out how its possible the lion support such numbers. Food for thought.
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Post by Yasuki Kanosei on Oct 6, 2011 7:42:19 GMT -5
The reason why the Lion have the most troops available? They are/were the Right Hand of the Emperor, so naturally they'd strive to have at least a large, if not the largest standing force. They also have the advantage of having the Matsu in their Clan, as that Family is very nearly the size of the entire Mantis Clan, all by itself.
The Lion also have reasonable agricultural resources to feed their soldiers, and no doubt have stockpiles in the case of protracted warfare. As one of the Masters of War, the Lion, I imagine, would have some idea of logistics, and would no doubt be able to sustain an army of around 350 - 400 k, samurai and ashigaru troops combined. Perhaps not for an entire year alone, but they aren't without allies (i.e., the Unicorn and the Mantis here), and with those two Clans supplying the Lion, the Lion could probably last for at least another three months more.
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Suzume Satoru
Sparrow Clan
* Sparrow Clan Champion * Suzume Family Daimyo * Warrior Poet *
Posts: 76
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Post by Suzume Satoru on Oct 6, 2011 7:46:32 GMT -5
I'm not saying the Lion DON'T have an army of 500,000+, I'm saying Im skeptical that the 500k number is just a total of samurai in the Army- and not samurai + ashigaru, as posited by Taiyo.
Also, from what I read, the Unicorn are hard pressed to feed their own numbers, despite their lands, thanks to wanting to keep most of it open grazing ground for horses. So that would leave the Mantis as realistically the sole source of extra food once stockpiles become depleted.
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Yasuki Chad
Crane Clan
Crab Clan
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Post by Yasuki Chad on Oct 6, 2011 7:50:33 GMT -5
Your Ratio's are a bit off, as well. The Lion have 500,000 soldiers, the crab 380,000, the Unicorn 350,000.
Lion army is a third greater then the next two largest militaries, and the "Massive Crab" army is actually only about 125,000 strong due to the need to keep 2/3rds stationed on the wall at al times.
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Post by kentaro on Oct 6, 2011 7:52:02 GMT -5
This is why I wish 'The Merchant's Guide to Rokugan' was actually about the economy of Rokugan. So many unanswered questions there.
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Suzume Satoru
Sparrow Clan
* Sparrow Clan Champion * Suzume Family Daimyo * Warrior Poet *
Posts: 76
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Post by Suzume Satoru on Oct 6, 2011 7:59:21 GMT -5
Your Ratio's are a bit off, as well. The Lion have 500,000 soldiers, the crab 380,000, the Unicorn 350,000. Lion army is a third greater then the next two largest militaries, and the "Massive Crab" army is actually only about 125,000 strong due to the need to keep 2/3rds stationed on the wall at al times. Ratio was for total population, not numbers for an Army. IE, in a typical feudal society, you generally have a larger than 1:20 ratio of [noble type: ie, Samurai] to peasants for a population. That itself has nothing to do with the numbers of an army, merely a correlation that if there are 500k samurai in the Army, then the total population of the Lion Clan would be ridiculously high. More than I think the Lion would be able to subsist in a landlocked space of limited size. Unless of course the Lion have a ridiculously and unusually low ratio of samurai:peasants.
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