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Post by Yasuki Kanosei on Oct 6, 2011 8:07:16 GMT -5
This is why I wish 'The Merchant's Guide to Rokugan' was actually about the economy of Rokugan. So many unanswered questions there. Unless the authors had studied economics, and/or had studied how the economy of feudal Japan actually worked, I doubt we'll be seeing this any time soon, if ever. The best we can really hope for is an idea of which Clans export what, and what they import too.
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
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Post by Tamori Manji on Oct 6, 2011 8:07:37 GMT -5
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Post by kentaro on Oct 6, 2011 8:13:32 GMT -5
This is why I wish 'The Merchant's Guide to Rokugan' was actually about the economy of Rokugan. So many unanswered questions there. Unless the authors had studied economics, and/or had studied how the economy of feudal Japan actually worked, I doubt we'll be seeing this any time soon, if ever. The best we can really hope for is an idea of which Clans export what, and what they import too. Admittedly, the odds of it occurring were unlikely. A study of feudal Japanese economics, while helpful, wouldn't account for the very different physical resources of Rokugan vs Japan. Plus, you know, magic.
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Demon Fox (妖狐)
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Post by Tamori Manji on Oct 6, 2011 8:24:38 GMT -5
The impact of magic in Rokugan is very different from what happens in other fantasy settings. It can't really create huge things (it's difficult to even create magical food for a small group of people) and it doesn't compare with, let's say, Dungeons and Dragons or White Wolf's magic. Besides, the best we had in terms of magical actions, inside EE, so far was "blast someone with magic fire". When we start having "invisibility", "shape change", "tsunami", "heal wounds", "weapon deflection using the wind" or a way to determine who can and who can't use the void, well... Also, aside from a few completely screwed up settings (Forgotten Realms I'm looking at you!), magic usually does have a logic and a place within the setting. So, once you familiarize yourself with what it can and can't do, it's easy to use logic to explain some of its impacts in everyday life.
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Kitsuki Zatoichi
Dragon Clan
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Post by Kitsuki Zatoichi on Oct 6, 2011 8:39:55 GMT -5
Despite the size of the armies, the victory can be achieved. The interested can read the story of Kakita Tsuken, keeper of the book of fire, that stood alone against an advanced Mantis force and stopped them. l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Kakita_Tsuken
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Akodo Taiyo
Lion Clan
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Post by Akodo Taiyo on Oct 6, 2011 8:51:29 GMT -5
Excellent maps! But back to the discussion about the size of the Lion army, I was just paraphrasing from the L5R wiki. "Over half a million samurai, organized into many thousands of units, made the total Lion army almost double the size of any other Clan army, save perhaps the Unicorn Clan." [a href=" l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Lion_Clan"] l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Lion_Clan[/a] Granted, the wiki states that a citation is needed, but I seem to recall this number being discussed in the Lion Clan books for the RPG. So this Lion is not just making stuff up, it's established canon. Admittedly, feeding that army is going to be a massive task, and losing the fertile fields of Three Sides River must have hurt a great deal, but armies can eat gruel and millet as easily as rice, if supplies of the later are lacking. Not an ideal situation, but we're not talking about an ideal situation, we're talking about a (hopefully) short term civil war, not a protracted campaign with long term deployments. However, to assume that the Lion would abandon their fortresses, which guard the borders we share with declared enemies, so that we could commit our entire army...heck, I've played enough "Total War: Shogun II" to know the supreme folly of that strategy. In these current events I would assume that the Dragon are too smart to accidentally stumble into a killing field between the Lion and Kaneka. I think it would also be safe to assume the Lion know how secure their fortresses when they march to war.
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Suzume Satoru
Sparrow Clan
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Post by Suzume Satoru on Oct 6, 2011 9:02:21 GMT -5
[/a] Granted, the wiki states that a citation is needed, but I seem to recall this number being discussed in the Lion Clan books for the RPG.[/quote] Yes, well the Emerald Empire book states the Lion Army sometimes reaching 500,000 soldiers, and also states that a typical army consists of no more than half actual samurai. So that wiki does indeed need a citation. I am also not contending that Swift Sword is undermanned by any means. Just the notion that the Lion army is "500,000" samurai, which is a ridiculously large number in a feudal setting of a relatively small scale (ie, Lion Territory).
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Post by Mirumoto Shigekazu on Oct 6, 2011 9:24:10 GMT -5
"The Way of the Dragon" p.25 (on the margin): A MATTER OF PERSPECTIVE The general population of samurai in Rokugan runs about two million. Given those numbers, the size of the general armies of each of the Clans can be estimated below: Crab: 300,000 Crane: 150,000 Dragon: 200,000 Lion: 500,000 Phoenix: 100,000 Scorpion: 200,000 Unicorn: 270,000 Minor Clan and Ronin (combined): 200,000
Please remember this is from 1ed. setting where Mantis was a minor Clan and this is not stated whether those samurai are only male or both male and female.
EDIT From "4th Edition Rulebook", p.53: The standard Rokugani military unit is the legion (daibutai), which comprises between 700 and 1,000 troops, commanded by an officer called a taisa (captain). Legions are divided into companies (kaisha) which number roughly 150-200 men, commanded by chui (lieutenants). Officially, legions are organized into larger forces referred to as armies, traditionally numbering 48 legions each, and commanded by a rikugunshokan (general) assisted by several senior officers known as shireikan (commanders). Every clan maintains at least one army, and the more militaristic clans can field three or four armies simultaneously. In practice, armies are more likely to be administrative and organizational in nature than to actually go into the field as a single unified force. Such large-scale deployments generally only take place during the Empire's rare periods of unrestricted warfare.
EDIT 2 From "The Way of the Lion", p.97: Rikugunshokan (General) The highest rank in the chain of command (...) have to deal with the housing, feeding and arming of some 50,000 troops (and their support personnel).
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Suzume Satoru
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Post by Suzume Satoru on Oct 6, 2011 10:51:07 GMT -5
"The Way of the Dragon" p.25 (on the margin): A MATTER OF PERSPECTIVE The general population of samurai in Rokugan runs about two million. Given those numbers, the size of the general armies of each of the Clans can be estimated below: Crab: 300,000 Crane: 150,000 Dragon: 200,000 Lion: 500,000 Phoenix: 100,000 Scorpion: 200,000 Unicorn: 270,000 Minor Clan and Ronin (combined): 200,000 Please remember this is from 1ed. setting where Mantis was a minor Clan and this is not stated whether those samurai are only male or both male and female. Does this sourcebook specifically state that these are Samurai totals, or just the strength of the army? To add to that: Emerald Empire, 4th edition, page 74: "Ashigaru are the rank and file soldiers that fill the bulk of any army. A typical Great Clan field army is no more than half samurai, and for some clans the percentage may be smaller." So if the total strength of Lion Clan armies is 500,000, then accordingly, at best, half that is Samurai. Unless you are honestly suggesting that a territory smaller than Georgia, USA is supporting a million+ man army. This discussion brings an interesting point about scale, and how horribly represented it is in L5R. That hundred thousand man strong armies are casually traipsing about (sometimes) in a small feudal setting is quite hilarious.
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Bayushi Hisa
Scorpion Clan
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Post by Bayushi Hisa on Oct 6, 2011 12:06:49 GMT -5
That is entirely possible for the most militant clan in rokugan, given Georgia is currently home to ~10 million.
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Post by Akodo Tsanuri on Oct 6, 2011 12:47:09 GMT -5
why are you fighting about one word? what's the difference if 500 000 are only samurai or whole army? in both cases other clans have at most 2/3 or so of Lions soldiers.
and I don't recall any scale on L5R maos that would indicate how big the Empire is. I've played with a few GMs and sometimes we travelled across the Rokugan in months and sometimes it would take just a few weeks (taking the same road and without random encounters)
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Post by Mirumoto Shigekazu on Oct 6, 2011 13:08:16 GMT -5
I copied entire text from The Way of the Dragon and there are no more information.
I think we should follow info from 4th Ed. Rulebook and The Way of the Lion. Both state one army has 35,000-50,000 soldiers (depending on Clan I assume). The Way of the Dragon states that Dragon has 3 armies. The same Way states that Dragon has 200,000 samurai, so we can assume that Clan has one army for every 65,000-70,000 samurai. Dragon army has 35,000 soldiers (legion has 700 soldiers according to their Way) and Lion army has 50,000 soldiers (according to their Way); it has sense since Lions are more militant than Dragons. But we must remember that none Clan can use all his armies at once, so the numbers should be multiplied by 2/3 to get maximum number of armies used at once and others serves as reserves.
I have made here little list which is only my assumption: CRAB: 4 armies 50,000 each (1 for free use, 1 reserves, 2 on the Wall) CRANE: 2 armies 40,000 each (1 for free use, 1 reserves) DRAGON: 3 armies 35,000 each (2 for free use, 1 reserves) LION: 7 armies 50,000 each (5 for free use, 2 reserves) MANTIS: 3 armies 40,000 each (2 for free use, 1 reserves) PHOENIX: 1,5 army 35,000 (1 for free use, 0.5 reserves) SCORPION: 3 armies 40,000 each (2 for free use, 1 reserves) UNICORN: 5 armies 45,000 each (3 for free use, 2 reserves) IMPERIAL: 1 army 50,000 (1 for free use, no reserves) SHOGUN: 1 army 50,000 (1 for free use, no reserves)
Please remember that army is formed from soldiers - both samurai and ashigaru (in proportion of 3:2) and these numbers do not contain support personnel.
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Suzume Satoru
Sparrow Clan
* Sparrow Clan Champion * Suzume Family Daimyo * Warrior Poet *
Posts: 76
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Post by Suzume Satoru on Oct 6, 2011 13:28:59 GMT -5
That is entirely possible for the most militant clan in rokugan, given Georgia is currently home to ~10 million. Yes, but Georgia doesn't support its 10 million population on its own, even with modern agriculture, nor does a 10 million population generally lead to a 1 million man army, even with a militant society. why are you fighting about one word? what's the difference if 500 000 are only samurai or whole army? in both cases other clans have at most 2/3 or so of Lions soldiers. and I don't recall any scale on L5R maos that would indicate how big the Empire is. I've played with a few GMs and sometimes we travelled across the Rokugan in months and sometimes it would take just a few weeks (taking the same road and without random encounters) Fighting? No. Contending, yes, because its an interesting point about scale. And the difference is huge. If it is indeed 500k samurai, then that would indicate an actual army of over 1 million, which is substantial by any account, modern or otherwise. The Tsardom of Russia and the Ottoman Empire, huge, expansive and militaristic entities, that did not have standards of training that a clan like the Lion would, struggled to field such numbers, and I'm expected to believe that one clan in a land locked area of small size is capable of fielding 1 million man army, half of which are highly trained and well equipped Samurai? And from the only map I've seen of Rokugan with a scale indicator: images.wikia.com/l5r/images/9/91/Rokugan.jpgwould suggest that Rokugan is roughly 800 miles by 1000 miles. Re: ShigekazuThat makes imminently more sense, particularly the last line.
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Shosuro Aroru
Scorpion Clan
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Post by Shosuro Aroru on Oct 6, 2011 13:55:33 GMT -5
...Samurai does not equal warrior in either feudal Japan or Rokugan. All Samurai are expected to know how to fight, but they don't all participate in wars. It's a class, there are courtiers and shugenja and in some cases ninja that are all Samurai. Are those figures just supposed to represent the Samurai that fight in armies or are they all Samurai in Rokugan?
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Post by Shokuma on Oct 6, 2011 14:56:14 GMT -5
Now that I'm home and have access to my books, I can throw in on the information or lack thereof.
The book that should likely have been cited for the Lion's claim to 500K army is Emerald Empire (3rd Ed, AEG 3204). Page 215 states "At one point prior to the Clan War, the Lion claimed to have an army of nearly 500,000 soldiers. Many believe this to be hyperbole, but the truth is that it was very nearly true, and the sheer strain of supporting such a force depleted the Clan's resources at a disasterous rate."
The same chapter of Emerald Empire gives summaries for all of the major clans, which is further expanded on in Masters of War (AEG 3205) and it's web supplemental. The most relevant other quote from Emerald Empire itself is on the Imperial Legions "Toturi I reorganized the Imperial Legions into their current form, consisting of ten miniature armies with a strength of at least 10,000 samurai of various arms (with ashigaru and other auxilliaries that can be summoned in a crisis, it's not unusual for a Legion to number 20,000 or more). One Imperial Legion, therefore, an take on a typical Rokugani army itsef, and will find itself overmatched by none except a good-sized Lion or Unicorn army." The Imperial Legions fall under the authority of the Emerald Champion, and through him, the Emperor himself.
Legend of the 5 Rings 3rd Ed (AEG 3200) gives population statistics across pages 286-300, as follows: Crab = 4,610,000 (258,000 samurai) Crane = 3,820,000 (213,000 samurai) Dragon = 1,830,000 (101,000 samurai) Lion = 5,280,000 (292,000 samurai) Mantis = 1,110,000 (66,000 samurai) Phoenix = 1,590,000 (88,000 samurai) Scorpion = 1,810,000 (102,000 samurai) Unicorn = 3,650,000 (203,000 samurai) Unaligned and Minor Clans [including Imperials] = 2,500,000 (143,000 samurai)
From Masters of War (AEG 3205) we have the following information (I have summarised it): Crab. 5 Armies (no numbers given, but each has 48 legions) 1st Army. Headquarters: Kaiu Wall. 2nd Army. Headquarters: Kaiu Wall. 3rd Army. Headquarters: Kyuden Hida. However, 13th through to 45th legions are stationed at Shiro Hirmua 4th Army. Headquarters: Watchtower of the East 5th Army. Reserves, scattered throughout the provinces, though 24 legions worth only exist on paper (until the Crab need to conscript a mass of extra forces)
Lion. 4 Armies (figures given are after the Khan's attack in the original timeline) The Akodo army. Headquarters: Shiro Akodo. As of 1169, the army's numbers stand at 28,000, or roughly three-quarters of its normal full strength The Ikoma Army. Headquarters: Kyuden Ikoma. Current manpower stands at approximately 23,000 men (roughly 60% of normal) The First Matsu Army. Headquarters: Crossroads Castle. As of the summer of 1169, the first Matsu army boasts slightly over 25,000 men, well under their normal strength of 36,000 The Second Matsu Army. Headquarters: Shiro Matsu. (no useful numbers given)
Unicorn. 3 armies The Baraunghar Army. Headquarters: Shiro Iuchi. Specialist army with a high number of Shugenja, it is designed as a fast-strike force. Numbers 10,000 troops split into 5 legions (each with approx 950 shugenja, 600 yojimbo and 450 veteran bushi) The Junghar Army. Headquarters: Shiro Shinjo. Comprises about 36,000 troops, of which 50% are cavalry The Khol Army. Headquarters: Shiro Moto. Contains nearly 75,000 troops across 80 legions, of which two-thirds are cavalry
From the Masters of War Web Supplemental (originally downloadable from AEG):
Crane. "Despite its relatively high number of samurai, the Crane Clan has never maintained more than two armies at any given time." "The Daidoji army is the second army of the Crane Clan, the army that is generally assigned the duty of securing the clan’s southern provinces against any possible aggression." The Daidoji Army. Headquarters: Kotasen Shiro. Comprised of 48 legions (specific numbers not given)
Dragon. "Having but one true bushi family in the entire clan, the Dragon maintain only one army. Fortunately, they have never had need of another." "Because of the nature of the territory they defend, the Dragon also tend to use much smaller units in their day to day operation, with individual companies spread across the Dragon territories to function in virtual autonomy. In particular, the Dragon make extensive use of both scouts and archers" The Mirumoto Army. Headquarters: Shiro Mirumoto.
Mantis. "The military structure of the Mantis Clan is completely unlike that of any other clan that has ever existed in Rokugan. Due to the clan’s relatively small size, the distance of its primary holdings from the mainland, and the vast regions of ocean that the clan considers its domain, the Mantis military forces are organized into a naval system rather than the traditional army structure first established by Akodo and generally adopted by all the other Great Clans"
The unit breakdown of the Mantis navy is as follows: • Crew – The staff of a single ship, typically a kobune, including the “captain” (the equivalent of a gunso in other clan armies) and a first mate (nikutai). Total: 25 men (on average) • Fleet – The crews of 26 kobune, 1 sengokobune (whose captain is considered a taisa by other clans), and 3 barges. Total: 1,000 men (on average) • Storm – 12 fleets and a single koutetsukan, commanded by the rikugunshokan of the storm, as well as a barge specifically carrying supplies for the koutetsukan. Total: 12,250 men The Mantis have 3 "Storms"
Phoenix. "The lone Phoenix army is extremely traditional in its overall structure, deviating from Akodo’s original template only in the composition of units, and adhering to it religiously in terms of how those units are organized." "The first Eight Legions, however, are like nothing that Akodo could ever have envisioned. As the clan with the highest percentage of shugenja in the Empire, the Phoenix have incorporated them into their military structure in an unprecedented manner. Specifically, the branch of the Isawa school devoted specifically to combat, the Elemental Guard, have been broken down into their individual elemental preferences and assigned individual legions. Those shugenja with an emphasis on earth magic make up the First Legion as the Avalanche Guard. Those who study fire magic make up the Firestorm Legion in the Third Legion, air magic as the Hurricane Initiates in the Fifth Legion, and water magic as the Tsunami Legion in the Seventh Legion. Obviously not ever member of each Legion is a fully trained member of the Elemental Guard, for not even the Isawa could field over three thousand shugenja of such power and skill, but a significant number are, and are attended by initiates, acolytes, and students, all of whom are familiar with their tactics and methods, and who contribute fully to the war effort." "In addition to the Elemental Guard, each legion of shugenja is attended by a legion of Shiba troops who are specially trained to interact with that legion."
Scorpion. "If a more maligned military force than the Scorpion Clan army exists in Rokugan, then surely no one knows what it is. The simple truth of the matter, however, is that the Scorpion army is secretly guilty of many of the allegations levied against it by other clans, not that the Scorpion would ever admit this. Still, the fact remains that the Scorpion army has experienced virtually all of its historical successes by virtue of the fact that there exists among its ranks a large number of highly trained and motivated soldiers who will do whatever is required to achieve victory, no matter how disgraceful or shameful the tactics might be." Consists of 48 Legions as standard, no specific numbers given
Spider. "That the Shadowlands, now the Spider Clan, are capable of fielding enough troops to equal that of a Rokugani army would surprise few who know what the denizens of that dark realm are capable of. That the Spider can field such an army comprised entirely of human warriors, most of them among the Lost but still many without any trace of the Taint, would shock even the most jaded Crab warrior." (I will say no more on this front, it is a stone best left un-turned)
Everyone can take this information as they wish (and if it's contradictory, blame the authors). I just wanted to clear up some of the speculation.
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