Yasuki Chad
Crane Clan
Crab Clan
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Posts: 476
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Post by Yasuki Chad on Oct 6, 2011 15:07:32 GMT -5
And the winner of the thread is Kakita Shokuma, using the most recent offical sources.
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Post by Shokuma on Oct 6, 2011 15:14:31 GMT -5
The sources are the most recent ones I have (and are consistent to each other), and given the timeline, the ones closest to the EE setting (by the time of 3E Revised, I believe that AEG had killed off Naseru and Kaneka?).
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Suzume Satoru
Sparrow Clan
* Sparrow Clan Champion * Suzume Family Daimyo * Warrior Poet *
Posts: 76
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Post by Suzume Satoru on Oct 6, 2011 15:17:39 GMT -5
I'm just going off of 4th edition sources, but the post Shokuma made lists some population numbers that make a bit more sense than an army of 500,000 samurai. Thank you Shokuma. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Demon Fox (妖狐)
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Post by Tamori Manji on Oct 6, 2011 15:24:41 GMT -5
Btw, and I'm speaking to everyone here, let's not forget the difference between samurai (one who serves a lord) and bushi (a warrior). Being a samurai simply says that you are on a lord's payroll and receives an annual stipend measured in rice (koku). One koku is, theoretically, enough to feed one person for a whole year. What is most surprising about a medieval army comprised of 500k samurai is not that they can all be bushi (at least some of them surely won't be) but that they all receive their yearly wages directly from their lord, not from farming or whatever other activity they may perform to earn a wage. PS: Nice post Shokuma, I would never have the patience to post something like that ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by Togashi Homsar on Oct 6, 2011 15:32:51 GMT -5
Don't forget the crazy tattooed men!
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Post by Shokuma on Oct 6, 2011 15:39:41 GMT -5
I think that the Ise Zumi count as "Elites" within the Dragon army (along with the Yamabushi). I didn't go into that kind of detail (though Masters of War does)
Manji, I don't think it was 500,000 Samurai, the book says "soldiers" only, and the bit on the Imperial Legions makes it clear that they pad them out with non-samurai at need.
Another interseting thing that we can glean from the data, is the amount of damage the Unicorn inflicted on the Lion armies during the Khan's attempted takover. Its AU to us here in EE, but imagine those amounts of casualties inflicted across all the warring clans by this civil war. Sobering stuff.
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Demon Fox (妖狐)
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Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Oct 6, 2011 16:07:46 GMT -5
Yes, Shokuma, I completely agree with you. As I see it, the samurai are elite troops (when they are bushi), commanders, administrators and the like. If nothing else, simply because they are "expensive", after all, they receive specialized training and live solely for their lord.
PS.: Yeah, they killed off the Toturi Brothers, that is Naseru and Kaneka. They kill off a bunch of important people regularly...
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Yasuki Chad
Crane Clan
Crab Clan
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Post by Yasuki Chad on Oct 6, 2011 16:33:24 GMT -5
One Koku feeds a man in theory.
12 koku feed a man in actuallity.
The 4e book states this at the beginning of the equiptment section and notes that prices are inflated accordingly.
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Akodo Keisuke
Lion Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
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Post by Akodo Keisuke on Oct 6, 2011 16:36:08 GMT -5
So lets look at where we are in the time line along with the numbers given by Kakita Shokuma. Taken from the old forums just so we Role Players don't get confused or forget the What,Why, and How of the "Emerald Empire" reality. As Alison Petrisek stated: "Our point of divirgence is the ascension of Hantei Naseru to the throne. He takes the name Hantei the 40th rather than Toturi the 3rd, in honour of his foster father, Hantei the 16th. The Toturi line is extinguished. (Formerly Toturi ) Kaneka is Shogun and Isawa (formerly Toturi) Sezaru is the Voice of the Emperor. We are beginning the year 1164. There have been several years of (mostly) peace since his ascension. Hantei the 40th is as yet unmarried and has not gone off wandering Rokugan. ..... In the official timeline the War of the Rich Frog (the war between the Lion and Unicorn) took place 1165. So that conflict has never happened. Lion Armies | Headquarters: | As of 1164, When EE Begins | As of 1169 after the Khan's attack | The Akodo army | Shiro Akodo. | 37,500 | 28,000 (roughly 75% of normal) | The Ikoma Army | Kyuden Ikoma | 38,000 | 23,000 (roughly 60% of normal) | The First Matsu Army | Crossroads Castle | 36,000 | 25,000 (roughly 69% of normal) | The Second Matsu Army | Shiro Matsu | 36,000 | | | Total | 147,000 | |
So I think it is safe to say that when fighting broke out, and the Dragon openly declared for Hantie, then they gathered an army at Kyuden Tonbo. The Lion would not have left the Castle of the Swift Sword lightly defended.
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Post by Akodo Tsanuri on Oct 6, 2011 16:41:22 GMT -5
I can't imagine ise-zumi as part of the army. it doesn't suit them. maybe one or two would come, but most will stay in the mountains and continue waterfall-training ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Kakita Mitsouko
Crane Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
::Daimyo::Kenshinzen::Hatamoto of Crane Clan::Paragon of Duty
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Post by Kakita Mitsouko on Oct 6, 2011 16:52:25 GMT -5
Aha. And I agree with Homura. I cannot imagine them making part of it as well.
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Post by Shokuma on Oct 6, 2011 16:53:53 GMT -5
Keisuke, probably best to take the second Matsu army as being "standard" at 48 legions of 750 (giving 36,000). Same can be said for any other clans undefined numbers.
The two flaws with the data I've given, is that we have no idea how many of these various troops are part of Kaneka's army other than the Unicorn (since the books don't define him as having any of his own. I'd guess in the real timeline he'd have Imperial Legions assigned to him as neccessary, but Naseru didn't sanction Kaneka's march on the Yobanjin, so its guesswork as to what his forces were), and whether or not any Imperial Legions (or significant parts thereof) "defected" to the Toturi banner.
On the Dragon's actions, it may be a feint (original suggestion for the clan's action was to attack the Lion in order to draw them away from Toshi Ranbo and make them split forces between the offenses of Dragon and Emerald Champion. The battles finishing before certain clans really got moving made a mess of that planning). What the inscrutable Dragon are actually up to is anyone's guess.
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Akodo Keisuke
Lion Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
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Post by Akodo Keisuke on Oct 6, 2011 17:14:31 GMT -5
Shokuma, you a very much right, there is no way to know what the numbers were that fought at Mountain Watch Keep or what their casualties were. Just pointing out the the Lion territories are not lightly defended.
Even if the Dragon's army movement is a feint, those Lion forces at the Castle of the Swift Sword would join up with Kaneka on his march.
So we will just have to wait and see how this plays out.
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Demon Fox (妖狐)
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Post by Tamori Manji on Oct 6, 2011 17:40:32 GMT -5
It wasn't only the Dragon movement that got messed up by the fall of Toshi Ranbo, the same can be said for the Phoenix. Their vote was to reinforce the Crane and protect Toshi Ranbo from the Lion... I guess there isn't much to protect now.
Like Keisuke said, I guess we'll have to wait and see how the votes will change based on the war development.
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Post by Shokuma on Oct 6, 2011 18:19:11 GMT -5
Keisuke, I am not disagreeing with you (and I hadn't considered the losses the Empire had already suffered during the Yobanjin war, only those that we are likely to face in this war, which should horrify anyone). What I am seeking, is just to make logical sense of all of it (if only by the maths). Hopefully more tactical minds that mine can use the figures to form a believable bigger picture, which will then give us all a backdrop for our RPs, tactics and general choices.
As for Kaneka joining up with the Lion, I'd expected him to get their before the Dragon got into place and it became a war of many fronts, thus producing one great big charlie foxtrot in the middle of the Empire (not unlike when the Khan tried it, to be honest)
Perhaps the orignal allegiance votes may give us some hypothetical basis for Kaneka's forces and the Imperial Legions. My logic runs thus: Of the forces that were at Mountain Watch Keep, those closest in loyalty to Kaneka would be the slowest to leave the celebrations. Of the Dragon, Phoenix and Crane any Toturi loyalists (28%, 34% and 23% respectively) could therefore still be with his Army (so those portions of the clan's total armies - or perhaps half the total, considering the need for home defence - are with the Shogun). The rebellious factions of the Crab, Lion and Mantis (36%, 14% and 35% respectively) have to be subsumed into other forces to be able to have any impact at all (logically this would be the Imperial Legions), so those parts of Clan forces (using the same rules as above), become unavailable to the parent clan. When you add up all of the votes (across all great clans), Kaneka support was 46%, which would suggest that even among the Imperial Legions there would be defections. Could be as much as 46,000 core troops (Emerald Champion didn't start padding out the Legions with auxilliaries and conscripts until very late in the war, so they would still be with him) if using the full percentage (less the rebellious factions of the Crab, Lion and Mantis).
The up-shot of this would be that Kaneka would have 46,000 Imperial Legionnaires, 121,000 Unicorn plus 19,400 from Crane, Dragon and Phoenix. Naseru has 54,000 Imperial Legionnaires (plus 42,600 returning "loyalists" from Crab, Lion and Mantis) and 50,000 ashigaru Legion troops (assuming only padding out the Legions by 50% rather than 100%) under the command of the Emerald Champion. Each individual clan has their own (rather reduced) force for it's own use - this would be 136,700 in the case of the Lion (to attck or defend as they see fit), which is an advantage of the clan being very much polarised to one side (the Crab end up with 118,000 rather than 144,000 and a need to continue defending the wall).
I've left the on-the-fence Scorpion and the we-don't-talk-about-them's out of this for simplicity.
And before anyone comments, I know that the army numbers look bad for the Hantei side. There is no way to make it look up-beat when the THREE LARGEST CLANS (every single one that merits a mention in Masters of War) are on Toturi's side. All I can say is that we live in the internet age - smaller is better (the corporations are selling you this message every day with your new-fangled gadgets) ;D
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