Akodo Keisuke
Lion Clan Mod
Lion Clan Regent ?Samurai ?Daimyo ?First Among Generals ?Tactician ?Commander ?Loyal
Posts: 704
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Post by Akodo Keisuke on Oct 7, 2011 10:44:08 GMT -5
Keisuke, although I do agree that its very nice and interesting when Jay gets ideas from the RP threads, I do hope this was not the case. Solely because most of our player base doesn't frequent the boards (or, at least, doesn't RP in them) and this case specifically, looting or trying to establish a "new rule" in TR (same for PC), should be mostly based on the votes of the whole player base, not the RP of a few. Well then what I hope you say is correct, and even those Lion players not on the boards refrained from looting the city.
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Oct 7, 2011 10:57:38 GMT -5
Yes, I do think so. I've noticed that many players in my dynasty either did both actions or simply refrained from looting.
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Post by Shokuma on Oct 7, 2011 11:05:23 GMT -5
It comes from 4th edition supplement "Emerald Empire" , chapter 10: War There's no information about where exactly other armies are located - just which families and special units they consist of Sounds pretty similar to the 3rd Ed version. Does the chapter follow up with information on the Imperial Legions, then Logistics, Maneuvers and Sieges?
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Kitsuki Yuushahime
Dragon Clan
This person sometimes posts things that are tl;dr
Courtier Magistrate Ambassador Daimyo
Posts: 1,140
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Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Oct 7, 2011 11:18:08 GMT -5
I would be far more inclined to agree with you about the Crane forces taking losses at Toshi Ranbo if it wasn't for what Jay had posted. Why did he post that? I'm not entirely sure, but there are a few possibilities. First off, conventional strategic teachings state that it takes 10 times the amount of attacking soldiers to siege and capture a city that the defenders have there. Now, we are talking about the Lion, and they certainly know their way around a war, but numerically it is highly unlikely for any defending force to lose the same, or even more, soldiers than their attackers during a siege. That's just how sieges work. It is also highly unlikely that an large force can just leave a besieged city without being massacred unless they have formally surrendered. That is just how sieges work. The Crane didn't surrender and I doubt the Lion would just let Hantei walk out. I think we can therefore safely assume that common sense does not apply. It isn't like the Lion would be so stupid to leave half the city unguarded and the Crane just walked out of the city and away... but that is what the game would seemingly have us believe. I think all of our comments can therefore be thrown off thanks to this. So what if the Lion poured in through a gate? Do you think they would pour ALL of their troops in one entrance and neglect to continue the siege of the city as a whole? What if enemy reinforcements or supplies arrived? Yeah right... Also, the Lion don't just rely on the Crane for food. Same for Unicorn. You make it sound as if the Crane are so powerful that they have all the food in the Empire and this just isn't the case. Only during a bad harvest do these two Clans need to trade - afterall, they would have the same number of troops and mouths to feed whether at war or not - it isn't like the ashigaru and samurai stop being soldiers just because there is peace. Usually they cope fine - even when at war the the Crane. This is because they do not rely on the Crane only for food. The problem actually is that the Crane then pressure others not to provide them food and supplies too, due to their network of favors and influence. Still, the Crab and Mantis can help. I think supplies isn't that big an issue as you make it out to be. Especially with harvest approaching. If the campaign began in Winter or Spring after a bad harvest then I would agree with you. Also, your strategy contradicts your earlier point. If the Toturi forces outnumber the Hantei forces and the Toturi forces are either behind walls or besieging something then attacking their armies is really the same as attacking their territories or defending Hantei territories. It isn't like attacking some Lion force stationed somewhere would be any different to attacking a Lion province with Lion troops in it. Really they are effectively the same in this game, unless a Lion forced happened to be in Phoenix lands or something. Whittling down troops is a good idea but with a numerically inferior force which, if gathered together, would be a ripe target for all of the Toturi forces to descend upon... well, with all of that, it doesn't seem like such a good idea. Far better to spearhead a charge against Toturi himself when he moves closer. At least in my mind. Striking the Toturi forces in mass is just silly for the reason you have yourself stated - the Hantei forces are outnumbered and two of their territories are under siege. An all out attack would just make things worse. One should instead attack a few key points, concentrating the lesser forces on key enemy groups - such as fighting off the sieges. And preparing for Toturi and Unicorn's attack must be pretty damn draining on Hantei's troops too. From the centre they will be able to attack anywhere - and they will soon be there. It goes both ways. So i am not sure it is much of an advantage. The fact of the matter is that the greater Hantei forces would be being watched and reported on as much as Toturi's forces are. And what of the other wild cards like the Monkey and Sparrow? You are quite biased in your assessment Sojiro. I try to be a bit more neutral. And Kaneka doesn't teleport overnight. You have "honourable" spies watching him day and night. You should know that his force is cavalry heavy with lots of Iuchi shugenja though - they are rather mobile! Anyhow, I stick with my original assessment - the Crane must have taken some losses, even if Jay downplayed this, which I think he didn't. He said "largely intact", not "completely intact" or even "mostly intact". He did not say how the Lion fared but he didn't say they had suffered "severe losses" or the like. This is why there is a die to protect the Emperor action. I imagine a good number did die protecting him. Secondly, Hantei's side has the new action and there are a good few options but only some of them are really viable and they must be careful not to overstretched themselves. Attacking everything in mass, as you suggest, would be suicidal. A giant troop surge is just what the Toturi side wants - they would love to meet the Dragon, Phoenix and Crane on open battlefields. Be smart. Attack one, defend your provinces and do some feints and maybe assault one other key target or Toturi. Attacking all of them or just one Clan in mass will probably not have that great an effect. Unite and conquer when you are the lesser force. Or use guerilla warfare. Don't try and divide and conquer when you don't have the numbers. Also, Shige, awesome posts and maps. I do advise you to pick up 4th ed. Emerald Empire. It is great. A nice chapter on war as has been stated
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Shosuro Aroru
Scorpion Clan
Scorpion Clan Ninja * Duelist
Posts: 625
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Post by Shosuro Aroru on Oct 7, 2011 11:28:06 GMT -5
Yes, it is my interpretation on moves but starting positions are based on info from Rulebooks on which Emerald Empire is based. You presented no reason why my interpretation is wrong. 1. There were no army at the Castle of Swift Sword. There were army at Kyuden Ikoma which marched north to meet Dragon Army. 2. If there were full Lion army at Permission City then why Hantei side had twice more missions than Toturi? Similar situation is at Lonely Shore City and Seawatch Castle when only Crane Army was beaten at Toshi Ranbo and was unable to join neither battle. Look at the map - Toshi Ranbo is close to the Permission City, so some troops may help defend the City but Toshi Ranbo is far from southern Crane provinces and sending any reinforcements was impossible. 3. Jay said course of action would depend on players decisions where send an army, number of clicks and difference of power, so why you said we cannot justify with RPG numbers? What do you propose then? ...You said you based your maps off of Shokuma's data. It flat out states in there that there is a matsu army stationed at the Castle of the Swift Sword. ...As for Permission City it doesn't make any sense that The Emerald Champion's army takes just as long to beat Permission City with nothing more than base defenders as it does two Lion armies to beat one Crane army. ...I don't propose anything, I just state that trying to justify the results of clicks in a "real world" sense is pointless. It doesn't work. You then also have to factor in the randomness of Jay's ending battles. Toshi Ronbo finished before the Phoenix even got there, effectively wasting their vote, which makes no sense, they decided who to support at the same time as everyone else. It was real world timelines that decided that, not in game things.
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Post by Mirumoto Shigekazu on Oct 7, 2011 11:34:08 GMT -5
Shokuma-san, there are differences on two crucial Clans - Crane and Dragon. In 3th Ed. they have 1 army each, now they have 2 armies each. This makes more sense in this war since Crane can defend their southern provinces with second army (stationed at Seawatch Castle I believe from where half of the troops were send to defend Lonely Shore City).
One comment on the losses on my map - both Lion armies suffered losses because of engagement in fight at Permission City and fighting of Toshi Ranbo. Crane army is not shattered because of retreat. Emerald Champion not suffered losses because of performance at Permission City. Crab also would not be damaged at LSC and second Crane army would be damaged like one of the Lion armies. Half of the 2nd Crane army still defends Seawatch Castle from Mantis.
This is how I see situation on Toshi Ranbo: Battle occured not in the city itself (not mainly at least) but in the field, as armies of Rokugan used to fight. This allowed Crane to withdraw from fight without being destroyed. Capital was captured after some fights in the streets with Imperial troops, but after main battle outside the town.
I will write more in spare time. I will update maps also.
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Post by Mirumoto Shigekazu on Oct 7, 2011 11:46:53 GMT -5
Aroru-san,
Second Matsu army stationed at Crossroads Castle, not Castle of Swift Sword as you stated. Yes, I was wrong when I put it in Shiro Matsu but it makes even more sense to engage this army in fight both in Toshi Ranbo and Permission City.
On position of Emerald Champion I would like to talk a bit more at other time (I make only brief now). He is a policeman, not a marshal - Shogun is a marshal and the Shogun commands Imperial troops. Yes, Hachi performed levying for Imperial troops but that means Kaneka took best soldiers to MWK and Hachi have mostly freshmen.
If you not propose anything your criticism is not constructive thus has no sense for community.
Phoenix was late. Well, Kaneka also has not take part in fight of Toshi Ranbo. Look at the map and distances and you will know why.
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Suzume Satoru
Sparrow Clan
* Sparrow Clan Champion * Suzume Family Daimyo * Warrior Poet *
Posts: 76
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Post by Suzume Satoru on Oct 7, 2011 11:52:15 GMT -5
Also, the Lion don't just rely on the Crane for food. Same for Unicorn. You make it sound as if the Crane are so powerful that they have all the food in the Empire and this just isn't the case. Only during a bad harvest do these two Clans need to trade - afterall, they would have the same number of troops and mouths to feed whether at war or not - it isn't like the ashigaru and samurai stop being soldiers just because there is peace. Usually they cope fine - even when at war the the Crane. This is because they do not rely on the Crane only for food. The problem actually is that the Crane then pressure others not to provide them food and supplies too, due to their network of favors and influence. Still, the Crab and Mantis can help. I think supplies isn't that big an issue as you make it out to be. Especially with harvest approaching. If the campaign began in Winter or Spring after a bad harvest then I would agree with you. Quoted the Emerald Empire 4th ed book (which you plug at the end of your post), 1. The Unicorn "don't produce as much food for themselves as they could. They are never able to export grain, and sometimes have to rely on imports from the Scorpion, Lion, or Crane." 2. The Crab are not exporting food to anyone, as "the Crab barely produce enough food to feed themselves." 3. The Lion usually break even with food. Sometimes they produce extra with good harvests- sending the extra to Unicorns or Crab, and sometimes they need to import from the Crane. The lions do have issues if war with the Crane coincides with a not so good harvest. The Crane really are the 'breadbasket of the empire', and that makes sense given the topography of their lands. And being actively at war does put a larger strain on supplies than being at peace, even with the same sized military. Traditionally, and I imagine this holds true for even the lion- peasants soldiers d not stay soldiers in time of peace, so during war, their productivity is lost. Also, the concentration and movement of such large numbers of people has a different impact on food stores than a garrison, regular dispersal of the troops (as they would be during peace) and residents.
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Kitsuki Yuushahime
Dragon Clan
This person sometimes posts things that are tl;dr
Courtier Magistrate Ambassador Daimyo
Posts: 1,140
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Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Oct 7, 2011 12:11:23 GMT -5
Quoted the Emerald Empire 4th ed book (which you plug at the end of your post),
- Ah but do remember this is set before the timeline of the 4th edition so not everything quite applies
1. The Unicorn "don't produce as much food for themselves as they could. They are never able to export grain, and sometimes have to rely on imports from the Scorpion, Lion, or Crane."
- Ah but do remember the Unicorn received many supplies from the rest of the Empire during their battle with the yobanjin
2. The Crab are not exporting food to anyone, as "the Crab barely produce enough food to feed themselves."
- Ah but do remember the Crab took southern Crane province famous for its trade. They likely have a lot of gold and food spare now...
3. The Lion usually break even with food. Sometimes they produce extra with good harvests- sending the extra to Unicorns or Crab, and sometimes they need to import from the Crane. The lions do have issues if war with the Crane coincides with a not so good harvest.
The Crane really are the 'breadbasket of the empire', and that makes sense given the topography of their lands.
- Ah, agreed, but that applies less so with the Crane not able to harvest well due to being besieged.
And being actively at war does put a larger strain on supplies than being at peace, even with the same sized military. Traditionally, and I imagine this holds true for even the lion- peasants soldiers d not stay soldiers in time of peace, so during war, their productivity is lost. Also, the concentration and movement of such large numbers of people has a different impact on food stores than a garrison, regular dispersal of the troops (as they would be during peace) and residents. [/quote]
- Ah but I think this is only true when the ashigaru are conscripted peasants. If they are normal ashigaru then they serve like samurai nearly all year around. Agreed though that there would be a different impact on food stores but the Lion are best able to plan for this as they are the most tactically and strategically gifted Clan in the Empire. In other words - if anyone can make it work, it would be them!
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Post by Togashi Homsar on Oct 7, 2011 13:59:25 GMT -5
All this talk about food is making me hungry.
Sudo, make me a sandwich!
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Kitsuki Yuushahime
Dragon Clan
This person sometimes posts things that are tl;dr
Courtier Magistrate Ambassador Daimyo
Posts: 1,140
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Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Oct 7, 2011 14:09:38 GMT -5
*Gives Homsar some peaches* Don't forget your day job!
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Post by Togashi Homsar on Oct 7, 2011 14:18:49 GMT -5
I'm here precisely to forget about my day job.
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Post by Mirumoto Asano on Oct 7, 2011 14:54:26 GMT -5
It comes from 4th edition supplement "Emerald Empire" , chapter 10: War There's no information about where exactly other armies are located - just which families and special units they consist of Sounds pretty similar to the 3rd Ed version. Does the chapter follow up with information on the Imperial Legions, then Logistics, Maneuvers and Sieges? Yes, pretty much.
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Akodo Tomatsu
Lion Clan Mod
The Shining Lion
Lion Clan Champion?Samurai?Tactician?Loyal?Paragon of Sincerity?Defender of the Empire
Posts: 1,042
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Post by Akodo Tomatsu on Oct 7, 2011 15:08:37 GMT -5
I'm here precisely to forget about my day job. Amen brother, amen.
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Post by Shokuma on Oct 7, 2011 18:07:50 GMT -5
Shokuma-san, there are differences on two crucial Clans - Crane and Dragon. In 3th Ed. they have 1 army each, now they have 2 armies each. Not quite. The quotes do state two armies for the Crane (though the lack of definition on what the first army is and does is unhelpful). Relevant portion from the wall of text: Crane. "Despite its relatively high number of samurai, the Crane Clan has never maintained more than two armies at any given time." "The Daidoji army is the second army of the Crane Clan, the army that is generally assigned the duty of securing the clan’s southern provinces against any possible aggression."The Daidoji Army. Headquarters: Kotasen Shiro. Comprised of 48 legions (specific numbers not given) I agree that the change to the Dragon is significant.
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