6/6/2012: Day of Thunder

[Kenji]

Taint sacrifices 1/25 would indeed be something valuable, considering the smaller player basis Spiders have.

[Akodo Keisuke]

Jun 6, 2012 12:50:50 GMT -5 Tamori Manji said:

Keisuke, the Glory boards simply cannot be compared to the Honor ones. Or do I need to bring up the difference between the two first places in both?

Math may not be my strong suit, however that is not my point. I was looking at the Spider/Shadowlands players not the entire player. Which is the difference, because most of the player base at large will not sign with spider/shadowlands. I doubt any of the top 10 on the Honor or Glory will willing sacrifice themselves for the shadowlands cause. If they are not already aligned that way.

Jun 6, 2012 12:50:50 GMT -5 Tamori Manji said:

Glory can be easily farmed, Honor can't (it can be farmed but not as easily).

Considering spider player and shadowlands supporters actions on the average cause an honor loss. I do not think it fair to restrict players to a stat that in the normal course of play the players are actively decreasing.

And yes looking back maybe Taint would be a better stat to use.

Jun 6, 2012 12:50:50 GMT -5 Tamori Manji said:

Besides, I agree with Aroru regarding the Lost and personal sacrifice, it simply doesn't add up. But I can see Jigoku willingly draining its pawns from their Taint to boost its more powerful minions (that is, Taint based sacrifice, that was a fitting suggestion).

Jun 6, 2012 12:37:44 GMT -5 Akodo Keisuke said:

Give the shadowlands a sacrifice action:

Looking at the battle at Drowned Merchant river:
Yes the honor divider needs to be bought down because, even if the top 10 players on the Honor boards for the Lion Unicorn and Crab take the deathseeker route that would be 10,213, over a thousand points shy of the spellcasting competition. When 30 players from across three of the larger clans who been working at the game a very long time and would be killing those same characters can not equal a the efforts 10 players there is an issue of balance that needs to be addressed.

Edited for clarification

[Bayushi Hisa]

Looking at the Kyoso ritual, they aren't even at this supposed 11,000 you keep talking about. They aren't even close to it. There is only an issue of balance if you making up numbers.

[Shoju]

I disagree, Keisuke. Look at it this way. I have been at The Forgotten Fortress for 95%+ of the time since the First wave of actions. In that time, I have put down somewhere between 1400, and 1600 clicks as a Spider.

On the low side,

28000 honor in a death, erases all of my farming under the 20 honor format.
35000 honor in a death, erases it all at 25 honor.

On the high side

32000 honor in a death wipes it out
40000 honor in a death wipes it out

That doesn't include any defense actions that they take. They could similar rack up hundreds of defense force by completing non competition jobs.

I just don't see how this scenario, coupled with the new spellcraft scenario ends up with anything short of another slaughter of the Spider, incredibly one sided, and really not close.

[Shokuma]

Jun 6, 2012 13:43:52 GMT -5 Bayushi Hisa said:

Looking at the Kyoso ritual, they aren't even at this supposed 11,000 you keep talking about. They aren't even close to it. There is only an issue of balance if you making up numbers.

That would be because of the two Spider with real Spellcraft power, one is barred from it because of the Oni ally restrictions. By the same token, I who can manage a measly 244 for the comp can't spend the 158 Akuma Favours in my inventory because of my "allegiance".

Keisuke's numbers are for Isawa's Fire (and likely how Day of Thunder: Kami Unleashed will go also).

[Akodo Keisuke]

Jun 6, 2012 13:43:52 GMT -5 Bayushi Hisa said:

Looking at the Kyoso ritual, they aren't even at this supposed 11,000 you keep talking about. They aren't even close to it. There is only an issue of balance if you making up numbers.

I am speaking of course of the Isawa's Flame competition, and the new Day of thunder Kami unleashed action.

Isawa's Flame


Day of thunder Kami unleashed action.
I do not have these scores but I sure they will be as equally scary even with the loss of Sprinkles and Shoju.


In the future do ask for clarification before you accuse someone of making up numbers.

[Shosuro Aroru]

...This is just boiling down again to the spider players can't win without being given huge advantages. Trying to balance out that advantage so that the spider have an equal chance against the entire rest of the empire both doesn't make sense from a player stand point and is incredibly difficult to do. This is the way of this game. The Crane have the most players among the clans and won the bride because of it. People didn't try and complain that all the other clans need advantages to combat the crane because there's way more of them. If you wanted to play a spider you should have known what you were getting into. It could be worse, I've been playing at Shades of Honor and you aren't allowed to play the spider at all.

...I think part of the reason people feel this way is that the shadowlands is supposed to be a huge menace to the empire that's on part with the entire rest of the empire in people's minds. The problem with making players part of it is that you can't give them huge power compared to every other player. So you've picked a faction that's hated by everyone else and no more powerful than any of them. There's really not much more to say on the topic.

[Tamori Manji]

Independently of the dividers used, I'm really looking forward to all the desperate last ditch sacrifices

[Shoju]

I disagree Aroru. Without the Spellcraft Comepetition, I'm completely in favor of increasing the honor to force ratio to 1:25, maybe even 1:20.

Great care was taken with this event to give the Spider a balanced battle. The spellcraft competition feels like it kicks that balance over. It was run in a manner to make the Spider feel like they were on par. We had the surprise attack. We had Akuma. We had serious peril in the introduction defensive actions, We have high costs to run the defense actions currently. All of which, serve to limit the amount of "firepower" that the "Good guys" have when facing the "Bad guys" when they are essentially on the "Bad guys" doorstep.

All of that works. Even with the Death Action. Even with the comparable Kenjutsu actions.

Maybe, if this battle had 3 months to rage on, I wouldn't have a problem with the spellcraft action, and lowering the ratio for honor to force. But it doesn't. And because it doesn't, the spellcraft competition turns the whole thing on its ear.

But by adding the spellcraft competition, and then talk of lowering the ratio of honor to force, it is an unbalacing measure, to a system that was already fairly balanced.

I get that putting the day of thunder action in there is a great addition, and I think that adding something to it is great, but Spellcraft is not the answer.

Why not Courage? I mean, It's the "7 thunders" so to speak right? You are going up against the monsters and bad guys of the shadowlands. Courage, seems like the type of thing that could make for a REALLY interesting counter. I'm sure there are other fitting stats that could be used.

I just don't see how with the battle sitting as it currently does, lowering the ratio for honor to force in death serves keeping this as anything but a landslide victory for the good guys.

[Akodo Keisuke]

I was going to say something but whilst I was typing Shoju posted a response so rather than say many of the same thin I will just quote him for affect.

Jun 6, 2012 14:22:18 GMT -5 Shoju said:

I disagree Aroru. Without the Spellcraft Comepetition, I'm completely in favor of increasing the honor to force ratio to 1:25, maybe even 1:20.

Great care was taken with this event to give the Spider a balanced battle. The spellcraft competition feels like it kicks that balance over. It was run in a manner to make the Spider feel like they were on par. We had the surprise attack. We had Akuma. We had serious peril in the introduction defensive actions, We have high costs to run the defense actions currently. All of which, serve to limit the amount of "firepower" that the "Good guys" have when facing the "Bad guys" when they are essentially on the "Bad guys" doorstep.

All of that works. Even with the Death Action. Even with the comparable Kenjutsu actions.

Maybe, if this battle had 3 months to rage on, I wouldn't have a problem with the spellcraft action, and lowering the ratio for honor to force. But it doesn't. And because it doesn't, the spellcraft competition turns the whole thing on its ear.

But by adding the spellcraft competition, and then talk of lowering the ratio of honor to force, it is an unbalacing measure, to a system that was already fairly balanced.

I get that putting the day of thunder action in there is a great addition, and I think that adding something to it is great, but Spellcraft is not the answer.

Why not Courage? I mean, It's the "7 thunders" so to speak right? You are going up against the monsters and bad guys of the shadowlands. Courage, seems like the type of thing that could make for a REALLY interesting counter. I'm sure there are other fitting stats that could be used.

I just don't see how with the battle sitting as it currently does, lowering the ratio for honor to force in death serves keeping this as anything but a landslide victory for the good guys.

[Tamori Manji]

I agree with Shoju that the 1 per 50 ratio shouldn't be changed on the Wall. The Spellcraft and the Kenjutsu competitions (if Hiromitsu wakes up and gets to participate, along with Senshi) are a huge edge for the Empire already. And I do think it would be interesting if the Lost started to sacrifice their own or if the Oni started devouring Lost to harvest the power of their Taint (which could be translated into a death action for the Lost that worked on a 1 force per 25 Taint of the sacrificed). As for the death actions at the Drowned Merchant River, I think their ratio could be improved to 1 force per 25 Honor, but 1 per 20 would be too much.

[Hida Joji]

Ok,

Tainted challenges:

Kyoso's Ritual - 10 x best, I'll say it'll add 5K since it's restricted to 50% ( why not?) of the Corrupted population.

Arrival of the Obsidian Champion - 10 x best, ATM 1987.

Akuma! - Best action ever - Must be spammed! BUT only for 50% of the Tainted population.

"Pure" Challenges:

Day of Thunder: For the Empire - 2737 ATM ( with a lot of the same guys on both with Bayushi Hisa winning both ATM )

Day of Thunder: Kami Unleashed - 5472 ATM



So,
Tainted: 6987 + AKUMA!
Pure: 8209

8209 - 6987 + AKUMA!= 122 AKUMA! Jobs

So Spider is behind 122 + Greater Sacrifice Total Honor / 500 ...

Which doesn't sound bad... with time and insane insane AKUMA! Job I think The tainted have a good chance at this.

IF YOU'RE TAINTED SPAM AKUMA! whenever you can.

If you're pure go away! FU LENG fell here NOT Hantei and his merry band of Kami!

[Utaku Mai]

Here's my (rather predjudiced) suggestion that might fix this. There could be multiple "Thunder" Actions, spellcraft included, but instead of counting the top 10, you count the top 1. This seems to be much more in flavor, since the thunders are all representative of different clans and different styles of success. So right now we have Kenjutsu and Spellcraft, so now throw in...Lore, Battle, Courage, any number of things, really...

...including, maybe perchance, horsemanship...

And while we're at it maybe throw in a few 'dark' ones for the spider too -- Taint, Shadowlands, Intimidation, etc along with their spellcraft. I think it'll help equalize the incredible disparity that Spellcraft has in the field and make the whole thing much more epic.

[Tamori Manji]

Hmmm, although I think that would give Jay a lot of extra work, it is definitely the best solution I've heard Mai. Very good idea (and it would work excellently if we were not so constrained by time)

EDIT: I must add something, been talking with Hiromitsu and we've agreed on the fact that sacrificing your character when everyone knows the game is gonna end is not exactly a "sacrifice" because everyone will lose their characters anyway. So, giving too much value to the sacrifice missions is kinda meaningless because almost everyone, besides the ones who can't (because they are participating in competitions), will do it near the end.

[Shoju]

The only thing joji, is that some of us can't click akuma