Utaku Mai
Unicorn Clan
*Battle Maiden* *Paragon of Honor* *Goddamn Rockstar*
Posts: 484
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Post by Utaku Mai on Jun 7, 2012 9:09:11 GMT -5
I doubt it's possible now, but if spellcasters had to 'choose' between doing the comp at DMR and the comp at FF, it might make things more interesting. Currently the same spellcasters are singlehandedly winning the last battle of the civil war AND the battle against the shadowlands. I mean, travel magic is good but it's not that good...
Spellcraft is just so high across the board. I honestly don't know how they did it and still had the skills to do anything else in the game. I have a mere 800 in horsemanship and still haven't even diversified enough to even get Great Destiny yet (I'm seeking enlightenment to put me over the edge for my meditation score), and there's the matter of even being able to do the kenjutsu one -- currently I have over 50 points in the skill but not quite enough equipment to put me over 100. I've tried to save my points, but they've slowly disappeared to try and do things for my faction. Many of the recent things needed fairly high scores in things like Etiquette and Intimidation to get involved. I've managed to diversify, but now it seems like I just didn't do so enough. :/
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Jun 7, 2012 9:51:02 GMT -5
I understand Mai and I agree with your arguments. As much as I love being able to use my Spellcraft and feeling that my dedication has paid off, its enough to be able to do that in one place. Although I doubt that the mechanic of "choice" that you've mentioned can be implemented now, Jay can still decide to, if he wants, instead of using the top 10 in those boards against the Shadowlands, to use the top 3 or simply just the one at the leadership, since he is supposed to be the Thunder. Also, for me what you've mentioned isn't even a choice. For all purposes Manji is fighting at the Drowned Merchant River (funny enough my score is higher at the Fortress of the Forgotten...) and, as much as he would love to help in the battle against the Shadowlands, he wouldn't abandon a war in the middle to do so and, despite our power, it would be hard for us to discover about the true gravity of that conflict from amidst another battle. Still, you must know that taking such measures will, probably, result in the fall of the Fortress of the Forgotten unless something else is offered to the defenders (our main problem truly is time. I think the events that Jay have been implementing are all great but having to do them all in such short time is not only a lot of work but it also creates situations like this one, there's no way around that). About the Kenjutsu competition, I think that what's truly limiting is not the Kenjutsu 100 needed to enter (mine goes up to 92 and I have no problem not being able to do it, I already kick ass at spellcraft and that makes me happy enough) but the Meditation 77 needed to acquire a Great Destiny. We gotta agree that, besides the Dragon (and, as I see now, the Spider Monks), there's no other place where you'll see those two skills being taught together and that, in itself, is more restricting to all the bushi than the Kenjutsu prerequisite (quite akin to the battle competitions, since only 4 schools teach battle). Spellcraft, on the other side, is taught by at least one school in each Great Clan and is almost always paired up with Meditation, so, joining in is not a problem to shugenja, at all. Is that all the Tamori are teaching? We teach all that to the 5 year olds to ensure they qualify for the hard stuff. *grin* Hahaha, good one Kiso but no, that's not our main curriculum. That's just a summer course implemented last year to relax the students after an stressful semester. Something light and easy for them to enjoy while traveling to the beach, playing summer games and such ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Kakita Mitsouko
Crane Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
::Daimyo::Kenshinzen::Hatamoto of Crane Clan::Paragon of Duty
Posts: 1,952
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Post by Kakita Mitsouko on Jun 7, 2012 9:52:41 GMT -5
Whether incidentally or not, the whole ~19 months of game experience made things run this way. The contests and so on. So, I don’t think we can blame generalists or specialists, for doing what they did, nor should we penalize people for choosing one way or another to play the game. The generalists have more chances to make ALL the actions, the specialists have more chances to win contests when they pop up. I know, it’s impossible to compete with people who have both time and persistence to play the game and earn enough points to win a competition. About balanced actions, we have been discussing it for a looooong time, in many other situations. Sometimes it’s hard to calculate the benefits/flaws of every action; the whole consequences of it. It would require knowing all the sheets of every player and it also would mean some prejudice/favoritism. I bet Jay didn’t intend to commit all the mistakes we claim he made during this time. But if we remember well, every time he turned back to fix things it didn’t make things better. Sometimes the best action is just let things go as they are. Also, I don’t think giving Spider huge advantages will make the game most interesting, but unreal. Yep, I know you are a little player base, but as someone already said here (Aroru I guess – by the way, nice post, guy!), but it should be taken in mind when you messed with the Empire. Asking for more power to taking farther the warring you created by yourselves (or by some of you), doesn’t seem fair to me. NOW THE HIGLY PREJUDICED PART: Spider guyz: Sorry if you guys choose to play the dark side. You were meant to not win from the beginning of it. I really hope you lose it. Not because you are a weaker player base, the battle actions are, in your opinion, unbalanced, and etc. But because you stand for what the average Rokugani despises the most. It’s the essence of the setting. Otherwise, you were the good guys. It’s only my opinion, and will not change anything. But guys, you got it, you have the spotlights right now. Congratz. It was well played. Now... Please, just die like good Spiders! ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) P.S> Anyway, I love you all!
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Post by Shoju on Jun 7, 2012 10:02:00 GMT -5
The problem Mitsouko, is even in L5R, the Spider, and the Shadowlands Horde before it, DO WIN from time to time. They don't win the major things, they are never going to destroy the Empire "For Real" But they DO win.
Bad things do happen. Fu Leng really did possess the emperor. Junzo really did open a lot of black scrolls, Oni really did run rampant through portions of Rokugan killing man, woman, and child. The False Hoturi gutted the Crane Clan with Shadowlands forces.
Heroes Died. In the Shadowlands. Good men succumbed to the allure of the Taint. Iuchiban escpaed THREE TIMES and reeked havoc. The Ki Rin fueled Rain of Blood happened.
These are all victories for the Spider, and the Shadowlands. We have fought and gained and lost and quarrled with the crab over Shiro Hiruma. It has changed hands multiple times. The Big stink is a former Crab Fortress.
These things happen. The good guys don't win every war.
Except in Emerald Empire. In Emerald Empire, the Spider aren't a threat. We don't scheme and win the minor victories here and there and then lose the war. We lose. We lose a lot. We lose votes. We lose Battles. We lose competitions, because we are encouraged by the very nature of our clan to diversify to infiltrate, only to lose in the competitions.
It has been a learning process, and Jay has worked with us. He has listened to us. He has read our suggestions in our private forums.
This battle was proof of it. He gave us a chance. A level playing field. Things looked good. And then the spellcraft competition showed up. And then there was talk about increasing the honor to force ratio.
All the Spider want is a fair chance. We don't want to be handed the win. But we don't want to look at it and say "Why in the world should I even bother? There is no chance."
In a game like this, if you are going to allow the opportunity to play "the bad guys" then the bad guys need to at least have a chance to win something every so often. So far, when the Spider pop our head up, it gets lopped off. We aren't a threat. We aren't the Shadowlands. We are a joke.
And like I said before, if we end up winning this battle, or it is close, and the spellcraft and death actions are not as unbalancing as it looks, I will be the first to say: "My math was wrong, I'm sorry."
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Utaku Mai
Unicorn Clan
*Battle Maiden* *Paragon of Honor* *Goddamn Rockstar*
Posts: 484
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Post by Utaku Mai on Jun 7, 2012 10:23:38 GMT -5
I did think that would be very cool, but I ended up not doing that because I thought it would unfairly exclude the Mantis Clan and non-Great Clan players. Well really, it's not like the Mantis are a real clan anyway... j/k. I suppose it would be a bit silly to have a sailing competition in the middle of the mountains, and that's the only thing other than maybe courage that I could see applying to a mantis-type thunder action...
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Jun 7, 2012 10:27:06 GMT -5
Actually, the other thing the Mantis are known for is Kyujutsu, because of the Tsuruchi, and I think it would be perfect for the situation (after all, very few people are crazy enough to go toe to toe against giant city devouring oni).
EDIT: There were even some Jade Bows being distributed during the Winter Court, you can't ask for more synergy than that ;D
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Shosuro Aroru
Scorpion Clan
Scorpion Clan Ninja * Duelist
Posts: 625
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Post by Shosuro Aroru on Jun 7, 2012 12:39:02 GMT -5
...Yeah, the shadowlands wins because the story writers write them that way. Occasionally they even win because they have a good deck in a balanced ccg environment that's all one on one battles. This is a clicky game, popularity and dedication are the two deciding factors. The "great evil" of the empire should only be a gm thing. You cannot fairly balance it that some players get a great advantage just to try and break even. The idea of players representing the evil that hurts everyone simply doesn't work for this format. The only way it could work is if you had an equal number of players that wanted to be evil, which isn't realistic.
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Akodo Keisuke
Lion Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Lion Clan Regent ?Samurai ?Daimyo ?First Among Generals ?Tactician ?Commander ?Loyal
Posts: 704
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Post by Akodo Keisuke on Jun 7, 2012 13:15:43 GMT -5
The box of players fighting for the evil side has been opened ever since Yojo Junzo' Army was a playable deck back 1996 in the Anvil of Despair expansion. Balancing things for the evil side has always been a tricking thing. Spider/Shadowlands should get a sacrifice action it only fits with the story now the the spiders have signed on with the Oni Overlords. ![](http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g462/akodokeisuke/th_222671.jpg) ![](http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g462/akodokeisuke/th_216040.jpg) ![](http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g462/akodokeisuke/th_8164.jpg) /50 for honor.I am not even the ranking Lion player on the honor board. My honor score is 24315 divide that by 50 = 486 Because of the SpellCraft competition Keisuke death in the battle would only equal a 1/2 of the lowest score from the Fires of Isawa. The entire sum action of of his influence are canceled, because of the presence of a competition. But as it stand 30 players would have to choose death to fall 2,673 points short of equaling the spellcasters. Not any 30 players but the 10 ten from the Lion Crab and Unicorn. ![](http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g462/akodokeisuke/Book2-1.jpg)
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Post by Hida Joji on Jun 7, 2012 13:36:01 GMT -5
It's the last battle, IMO, something can be done... Spellcraft has been used enough so that the spellcraft powerplayers don't feel cheated. I stand for a fix.
I wasn't aware of how high and how widespread 1,4K spellcraft is... It's tottaly broken ATM.
2 skills I feel are perfect for Thunders are very skills jay decided for great destiny: Courage, Shadowlands. are very skills jay decided for great destiny...
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Post by Hida Joji on Jun 7, 2012 13:41:11 GMT -5
... Meditation 77 needed to acquire a Great Destiny. We gotta agree that, besides the Dragon (and, as I see now, the Spider Monks)... Having 77 is any skill is only an issue if you're saving all your points to win 1 contest. Contest mechanics are the weak point of this awesome game. You blow everything in 1 skill and then if the skill is used a lot you're a hero, if not... well...
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Jun 7, 2012 13:48:19 GMT -5
Joji, I agree and I think Kyujutsu should be right up there with them. Keisuke, sorry but I have to ask, since the game is ending soon what is stopping all of you from sacrificing and surpassing our scores? I've never seen a sacrifice action with a bonus, they have always been flavor (at least the ones I've seen... I got no mechanical bonuses out of my sacrifice to protect Hantei back when Toshi Ranbo fell), but now that we are close to the end and there's nothing to stop people from killing their characters (because they will not lose anything by doing so) why should their deaths be over valued? I, for one, cannot sacrifice Manji because of my place in the competition. So, if the death actions become even better than they already are they will solely favor those who have nothing to lose (that is, that are not in the top 10 of a competition and that crowd is much, much larger). Also, you are making these calculations without adding the results for the Horsemanship competition (low scores compared to ours but still important) or the overall clicks made by people. EDIT: Having 77 is any skill is only an issue if you're saving all your points to win 1 contest. Contest mechanics are the weak point of this awesome game. You blow everything in 1 skill and then if the skill is used a lot you're a hero, if not... well... It depends. Many people I know, myself among them, raise the attributes only as much as needed to complete the most common jobs and the only other place Meditation is really needed is Reihado Shinsei (I must admit that I went there to master those actions before lvl 100 but I think I am one of the very few who did it so early or who've bothered to go beyond the gold mastery). The missions with high skill requirements are definitely not for everyone, especially the ones that ask for rare skills.
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Utaku Mai
Unicorn Clan
*Battle Maiden* *Paragon of Honor* *Goddamn Rockstar*
Posts: 484
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Post by Utaku Mai on Jun 7, 2012 14:11:28 GMT -5
maybe people are waiting to do it until the very end? Who knows. But if a year's worth of honor gain will add as much force to a side as a few days of simply clicking the fighting actions, it seems more economical to just click the fighting actions, at least for a while.
Plus, now that the Dragon have completely owned CotSS through their magical might, it seems only fitting that the Phoenix feel the need to prove their own prowess at the magical arts, leading to yet another complete and utter massacre, perhaps even with Hachi's own legion suffering right along with the lion and unicorn as friendly fire (no really, it's actual fire) burns the land and causes the river to boil for as far as the eye can see.
Enjoy your spellcraft competition, guys. ;D
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Jun 7, 2012 14:16:41 GMT -5
That's exactly my point Mai. Death in the battlefield, in this particular case, is a free boost that everyone who isn't in the top 10 of a competition is able to achieve (which is why some sort of sacrifice action could be added for the Spider too, that would even the odds).
EDIT: Still, on the Spider topic, I gotta agree with the last post made by Aroru.
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Post by Asahina Yuuto on Jun 7, 2012 14:45:37 GMT -5
Well, we may not be marching to the sea, but a river will do in a pinch. Civil War is a terrible thing.
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Utaku Mai
Unicorn Clan
*Battle Maiden* *Paragon of Honor* *Goddamn Rockstar*
Posts: 484
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Post by Utaku Mai on Jun 7, 2012 14:58:32 GMT -5
That's not what I'm saying, Manji.
Forget for a minute about the competitions, just focus on the offing actions. I can off myself right now and add 380 points to my faction. I'm the #3 most honorable person in my whole clan, and still it would only be 380 or so.
Now, if I were committed to the cause and happened to have plenty of heavy infantry, I could meet that same 380 force in maybe four days of clicking.
If four days is all we have left, people might be hedging their bets and doing as much as they can before the very end.
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