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Post by kentaro on Sept 30, 2011 6:08:31 GMT -5
I think trying to get the Corrupt Mines destroyed is not going to happen. Jay added them in to add balance, and I think ICly basically nobody knows they are there. The Spider have a hard enough time already without taking them off them. Agreed. But then, I may be biased...
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Bayushi Hiryu
Scorpion Clan
Scorpion Clan Ninja*Dragon Clan Ally*Samurai*Courtier* Tactician*Chrysanthemum*Inexp Hiryu*Unique
Posts: 217
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Post by Bayushi Hiryu on Sept 30, 2011 12:01:16 GMT -5
I personally don't think they should be destroyed, as for game balance they belong to the actions giving power at a price to Tainted characters, which I think is good (and no, I am NOT a Spider). However, I would really welcome more non-corrupted mines, as I find strange that there is no uncorrupted Copper Mine in Lion lands, no uncorrupted Silver Mine in Phoenix lands, no Stables in Unicorn lands (OK, this one goes too far)...
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Post by Mirumoto Shigekazu on Sept 30, 2011 12:11:41 GMT -5
There are stables in Unicorn lands.
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Post by Shoju on Oct 6, 2011 10:58:14 GMT -5
I think it is safe to end the bloom of the white orchid tournament. Koichi has been on top for 60+ days, and none of us are going to catch him. Positions 7 through 10 are the only ones that are even "close" to being able to change.
#1 - 2 = 26 points separating. #2 - 3 = 75 points separating. #3 - 4 = 93 points separating. #4 - 5 = 74 points separating. #5 - 6 = 97 points separating.
Twas a good fight for the spots.
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
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Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Oct 6, 2011 11:29:46 GMT -5
I think trying to get the Corrupt Mines destroyed is not going to happen. Jay added them in to add balance, and I think ICly basically nobody knows they are there. The Spider have a hard enough time already without taking them off them. May I ask which kind of balance? They serve only tainted characters, aren't Spider only and there are no untainted equivalents of them. Also, it's surprising that there are so many corrupted mines across the Empire that no one knows/cares about. Tainted characters have no restrictions whatsoever to do anything (except a single kata that was added recently and is, quite frankly, useless) and I see only advantages to being a Spider in game. I mean, c'mon, you can start in one Clan, marry into another then swear loyalty to Daigotsu. That means three different skill sets for a single character. How is that a hard time? If there is something that I'm missing here, please point it out, I wanna know.
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Post by Shoju on Oct 6, 2011 13:30:10 GMT -5
Sure. You can ask. Here is the answer. it is one of the few things in the game that players can spend Spider Favors on.
There is a non tainted equivalent, Tetsu Kama Mura. Anything that I can get at a Corrupted Mine, you can get there, and it doesn't cost you a favor to do so.
Define "So many" I count.... 4. That's not.... "That many".
I can? I can do anything? Well, then Sign me up for enlightenment. Sign me up for a Toshi Ranbo Kimono, and all the jobs that have required one. Sign me up for marrying into another clan. Sign me up for Strike the Darkness (you mentioned this) Sign me up for Ki Rin's Blessing.
and that's just off the top of my head. I could go digging around the game, and list all the actions that are taint < req'd, including the options for the Random Encounters.
You are speaking from "starting at scratch" Some of us, never had the chance to marry into another clan. I was >175 level when that feature came out. i'm sure as hell not going to seppuku so I can try it out.
Playing tainted has just as many drawbacks as playing untainted. The big difference here, is that most of the time, the players who are playing untainted are also worried about things like Glory, and Honor, and Infamy, and think that the people who are tainted aren't bothering to worry about those things. Considering the levels at which I, and others find our glory, and honor, I would say that we care about it Very much.
So please, spare me the rhetoric about how I have no limitations in the game. I can bring up a ton of things that the tainted / spider players have suffered through for their choices in game.
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
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Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Oct 6, 2011 14:49:21 GMT -5
There is a non tainted equivalent, Tetsu Kama Mura. Anything that I can get at a Corrupted Mine, you can get there, and it doesn't cost you a favor to do so. Can you get Copper and Silver there? Also, I can make the same argument in favor of all minor Clans, they have a way harsher time than the Spider, who isn't even a Clan. Also, Spider or not, this speaks about tainted characters. There are many people playing "untainted spiders" lately (a thing which is nonsensical to me, but I digress...). About all the other options, you simply have to do them before getting tainted or you can reduce your Taint to one, do these missions, then jump into Jigoku's pool again. None of these missions rewards have a prerequisite that stops tainted characters from using them. It's not rhetoric, it's the truth. You say there were no marriages months ago, when you started, ok. But couldn't you still belong to any Clan and swear allegiance to Daigotsu? A planned Spider character has many more possibilities than a untainted one.
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Post by Shoju on Oct 6, 2011 15:33:12 GMT -5
Can you get Copper and Silver there? I will double check by using the mine again, but I'm fairly confident that I have gotten one or the other from there. If I'm wrong, then I will agree that there should be a non tainted mine that will allow you to get those items. This also drives me nuts. There are PLENTY of sources of non tainted spiders in the CCG and Stories. I'm curious how the minor clans have had a way harsher time than the spider....... Especially recently, with minor clans even having things going to a vote internally? I mean..... You are going to need to cite an example of a minor clan getting the shaft. If you mean not as much content, well.... Yes. There is less. But that is supply and demand. How many active members of some of the minor clans are there? There are a large number of ACTIVE Spider players, not jsut here on the boards. Reducing taint is not an option. It would take me 5 years of every day doing the reduce taint job to get under <100 taint. You can't use "well you have to do it before you taint up" as a valid excuse. Some things weren't in the game before I "tainted it up". So because i tainted it up after the fact, I don't get to do it? That's the defense of your position? Of the things I listed, Marrying into another clan, the kata, and the soul were all introduced to the game AFTER I "tainted it up" as you say. No. Swearing fealty to Daigotsu back when I did it, meant killing my character and re-rolling. How do I know? Because that's how I did it. Bayushi Taizin died, and this character was born. I sepp'd at level 69, and was 3rd on the most glorious dead board when i did it. There was no "swear fealty to daigotsu" that came out when the marriages came out. trust me, If it would have been around when I "tainted it up" I certainly would have done that instead of killed of my original character. The game has evolved. You can't expect people to sit idly "just in case" something comes up. Tainted players get the shaft on a lot of things. They sacrifice the ability to do things, to do things in the future. To be a part of things in the future to "taint it up" the fact that we trade these things for immediate gains is very fitting in the L5R setting and lore, as well as fantasy lore in general. I mean... what "gains" have been made in the game because i'm tainted? Because I have done "all these extra jobs"? I've been playing for a while on this character, and the only things I can say is "i'm pretty cool for a tainted guy. Man I rock the spider leader boards." The ability to blow through thigns and do all this "cool stuff" hasn't given me an edge on the leaders boards. In Overall I'm #18 glory #175 honor #28 experience #10 infamy #11 taint #14 earth #20 water #34 fire #54 air #50 void #25 fate In Spider I'm #1 glory #4 honor #2 experience #6 infamy #7 taint #4 earth #2 water #2 fire #4 air #2 void #2 fate Yeah... some AMAZING advantage there eh? Go through the top 10 boards for taint. Find me one of those players who is top 10 in some categories on the overall boards. It is a large fallacy that swimming in taint does "something" for you in game. You can't even claim Fate farming, since Daigotsu Karteru was still in the same position he is now (fighting with Ojii over top fate spot) before he had even 1 taint in the game. Before he went to the Lion. Before he came back. The idea that it's a bonus is highly overblown and greatly exaggerated.
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Suzume Satoru
Sparrow Clan
* Sparrow Clan Champion * Suzume Family Daimyo * Warrior Poet *
Posts: 76
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Post by Suzume Satoru on Oct 6, 2011 15:58:14 GMT -5
As an aside, I certainly don't feel the Minor Clans are getting 'screwed'. Though, he value of Sparrow Clan Favors is probably less than zero.
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Oct 6, 2011 15:58:50 GMT -5
Shoju, I don't disagree with anything that you've said (except the Tetsu Kama Mura thing. Really, it gives only a LOT of Iron and some gold, nothing else). But I must say that you can't judge how being tainted now is by how it was back when you've started. I agree and understand that you had a way more difficult time than probably many Spider players will have now and that some of the combinations that I've mentioned appeared only lately. But they appeared, they exist and I have to mention them. Now, I even feel inclined to create a character just to prove a point (because I, sure as Jigoku, ain't gonna taint Manji or fill the infamy bar with him) About the Minor Clans, well, one Clan got a vote option, you can't judge everyone based on the Monkey. Because one person was so vocal about his position Jay conceded that he try to give a mechanical basis for it and created a vote. The same is not true for, let us say, the Badger, who has also been vocal about his position (although he did gain a recruiting mission). As it is today, being a Spider, being Tainted and being Infamous are, as I see it, advantages. If nothing else, simply because they give a character more possibilities (a.k.a. more missions and items). It may not have been an advantage back then, I can accept and understand that, but it is now. PS.: I wouldn't use the word "screwed" for the Minor Clans. It's just that they are, well, minor... PPS.: The thing about all these untainted shadowlands' dwellers is a long discussion. I understand your point but I won't enter into details here. Maybe some other day we can discuss it leisurely over a better media than the forum.
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Post by Soshi Kiso on Oct 6, 2011 16:24:33 GMT -5
Iron, gold, sometimes jade. I've mined enough there to know.
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Post by Shoju on Oct 6, 2011 16:48:58 GMT -5
Yeah... i'm now through 40 clicks, and Iron, Gold, and Jade. Odd. I could have sworn that I got copper and silver from there.
I will concede the point that there should be a mine that gives copper and silver.
The point that I was making about old spider vs new spider, is that you can't say that things are 'so not fair' for tainted people when it doesn't apply to all the tainted people. It only applies to "new" tainted characters, and even then, it isn't really new tainted players, it is new players who plan to go tainted and actually spend time mapping out making sure that they get all the non tainted items that they want before they taint themselves up. If you want that to change, then those items that are locked out by need <100 taint to perform the actions, should also carry a <100 taint to equip on the action.
I know that you can get enlightened, and get all of those options before you taint up. That's a total possibility. I will say though, that not all tainted people had that option, and the people who do those things now, and then taint up still sacrifice the right to do that later on. We sacrifice our future for more power today. There are people playing the game right now who have done this very thing. I commend them on their planning. Daigotsu Karteru and Goju/Mirumoto Pete are truly to be commended for the amount of planning that they put into their characters to achieve maximum effectiveness of their characters. But what they did is no different than if OJii decided that he is going from Ronin to Spider, and tainting himself up, now that he has seen all of the non tainted content that the game has to offer.
As far as the minor clans getting a vote, and comparing everything based on the monkey, I could then compare it to myself. The Spider made a HUGE to do about voicing our support for the HANTEI before the votes even started for the major clans. We came to a consensus here on the boards, and only had one dissenting, and that was because he acted before reading the boards, and even mentioned he would recant if possible.
Instead of the position of the Spider getting taken into account, we got thrown out there to fail. To die. You will never get me to say that the spider had a chance in hell during the votes that were going on at the two camps. It wasn't indicative of what the Spider players had done up until that point, we weren't offered the chance to vote on what camp to go to, we were just sent to both, and now have to deal with the fall out of that.
That, is getting the shaft worse than the minor clans. it took a while, but the monkey and badger have at least been given their dues based on their rp here on the boards. We weren't. We were set up to fail from the very beginning. Because of the way it was structured, people like me didn't even put the full weight of our fate behind it. I max mastered the action and moved on. I had absolutely no hope of even getting 'recognition', so why bother farming flattery (a horrible item to farm for anyway) for days on end, and plugging them into an action that is going to just result in failure for my position when I could go farm up other things for more fate tokens, so that I could make a difference in other point sin the game. I'm not the only spider who took this approach either.
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Agasha Shodai
Phoenix Clan Mod
Phoenix Clan * The Void Master * Tensai * Taisa * Enlightened * Paragon of Compassion * Unique
Posts: 783
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Post by Agasha Shodai on Oct 6, 2011 16:50:51 GMT -5
I hope Jay lets the tournament go just a little bit longer... A few more days and I'll have Emeralded the action.
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Post by Shoju on Oct 6, 2011 16:52:02 GMT -5
I could see letting it go that long. I stopped doing it every day, and only do it after I level up, and plug more points into it. I know I will never catch up, but I'm not sure I see the point in adding poitns to another skill at this point, unless something gets "hard" to master again.
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Oct 6, 2011 17:26:35 GMT -5
Wish I could've participated in the White Orchid, there probably won't be any tournament like it anytime soon About Ojii, Pete, sprinkles (and myself to some extent) well, character optimization (or character engineering) isn't new to games. Always on P&P RPGs I try to find a comfortable place between story and mechanical effectiveness and I can't blame people who use every legal means available to better their characters in a electronic game. I think it comes with the territory. Instead of the position of the Spider getting taken into account, we got thrown out there to fail. To die. You will never get me to say that the spider had a chance in hell during the votes that were going on at the two camps. It wasn't indicative of what the Spider players had done up until that point, we weren't offered the chance to vote on what camp to go to, we were just sent to both, and now have to deal with the fall out of that. That, is getting the shaft worse than the minor clans. it took a while, but the monkey and badger have at least been given their dues based on their rp here on the boards. We weren't. We were set up to fail from the very beginning. Because of the way it was structured, people like me didn't even put the full weight of our fate behind it. I max mastered the action and moved on. I had absolutely no hope of even getting 'recognition', so why bother farming flattery (a horrible item to farm for anyway) for days on end, and plugging them into an action that is going to just result in failure for my position when I could go farm up other things for more fate tokens, so that I could make a difference in other point sin the game. I'm not the only spider who took this approach either. I can understand your frustration about these developments and, as a player, I can relate. Those courses of action were, although fitting according to the craziness that is L5R lore, far from what "villains" in any setting would do. You don't just put yourself at the mercy of people who hate your guts and hope for the best (and then throw your life away against their defenses, confirming their suspicions about your evil intent). It's a shame that the Spider weren't presented with better and more insidious options, a smart villain is always more interesting than the ones that go "bwahahaha, I'm Evil!", although those can be funny. Also, akin to what is happening in the Monkey, I think all votes related to "Clan only" decisions should be limited to members of that Clan and the options should stay "invisible" to all non Clan members. That would not only be more appropriate but also would create some small degree of surprise in the game. Although I do share your frustration in many points about what we can actually do, I stopped caring about it. This is not a P&P RPG, there will always be strict limitations that go beyond our own powers. While I do try to change things for the best and am very vocal (sometimes too vocal) about my opinions, I don't really worry about it anymore. Whatever happens, happens, the rest is patience and persistence. As a player, I can only wish that you too manage to change things for the better (and am rooting for your efforts with the Snake Clan to be successful). I like my villains smart and, although I had no opportunity to interact directly with Shoju, I liked your character. Also, as they say, "strength in numbers", so, if you ever need my opinion, as a player (because I can't see Manji ever agreeing with Shoju hahaha), about any mechanical problem or course of action in the game or wish my support for a cause, you can count on it. In my opinion, you are one of the best and more open minded mods this forum has, so, I pretty much trust your judgment and fairness.
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