Isawa Kinen
Phoenix Clan
All is equal before the Void.
Posts: 117
|
Post by Isawa Kinen on Mar 1, 2011 9:33:56 GMT -5
I'm agreeing wholeheartedly with Setsuro on this one. This is a great idea and players from now on really should stick to one side for these political things. Going for both sides disrupts the political environment, and could alter the shape of the world, all for the sake of a cheap elemental token.
Granted, this kinda came with little warning, but hey, it works and makes perfect sense. If you opposed his march to defeat the Yobanjin, then obviously he's not going to want you in his inner circle while he figure out the best plan for what to do. At least you're not forbidden from helping fight the Yobanjin off, just forbidden from strategizing.
|
|
Kakita Shinji
Crane Clan
Laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone
Posts: 485
|
Post by Kakita Shinji on Mar 1, 2011 9:45:21 GMT -5
It makes sense, but still it's a game, and from game you'd expect clear rules. My problem is that so far there was no such situation, and forums clearly stated that there was no problem with having sworn enemies, so i got one from mantis clan, then crane clan and recently kaneka. I mean - why not if there are no consequences, but even profits since it allowed me to do tournament twice.
And now without warning it turns out game will include such consequences. Let me repeat - I don't mind that generally. It makes sense it introduces decisions and consquences to game and that's for better. What I mind is that it's a sudden addition, and if I'd known there would be such situation I wouldn't use my slanders on that mission.
So forgive me, that I'm not crazy about fact that there's cool new action I won't be able to do.
|
|
|
Post by Hida Setsuro on Mar 1, 2011 9:56:18 GMT -5
It makes sense, but still it's a game, and from game you'd expect clear rules. My problem is that so far there was no such situation, and forums clearly stated that there was no problem with having sworn enemies, so i got one from mantis clan, then crane clan and recently kaneka. I mean - why not if there are no consequences, but even profits since it allowed me to do tournament twice. And now without warning it turns out game will include such consequences. Let me repeat - I don't mind that generally. It makes sense it introduces decisions and consquences to game and that's for better. What I mind is that it's a sudden addition, and if I'd known there would be such situation I wouldn't use my slanders on that mission. So forgive me, that I'm not crazy about fact that there's cool new action I won't be able to do. Who in the world told you there was no disadvantage to having a Sworn Enemy? Was it Jay? Alison? If not, remember that the information is not concrete. The problem of it being sprung on you is an important part of the game, though. This being sprung on you means that -you- have to take responsibility for your character's actions. Your character can't just go willy-nilly and do everything in the world. Some actions have consequences. Just like if you were playing any kind of RPG where you had two factions at war, if you sided either side, their enemies would then hate you. Don't expect to walk into their camp unopposed and offer to help them out. They won't trust you. So, while I realize that there's not anything specific stating everywhere, it's also kind of a 'trust your experience' here.
|
|
Kakita Kyoshi
Banned
Crane Clan ? Samurai ? Duelist ? Enlightened ? Hero ? Kenshinzen ? Loyal ? Unique
Posts: 213
|
Post by Kakita Kyoshi on Mar 1, 2011 9:57:53 GMT -5
And now without warning it turns out game will include such consequences. Let me repeat - I don't mind that generally. It makes sense it introduces decisions and consquences to game and that's for better. What I mind is that it's a sudden addition, and if I'd known there would be such situation I wouldn't use my slanders on that mission. Yes, informed decisions would have been nice. I love to see consequences to my decisions, but they feel much more rewarding if I know what the consequences can be before I make the decision, to just get a consequence without the slightest idea that it can happen is in my opinion bad game design. But so far Jay and Alison had never thought about talking with us about design questions (I think they really should think about a little more transparency there).
|
|
Kakita Kyoshi
Banned
Crane Clan ? Samurai ? Duelist ? Enlightened ? Hero ? Kenshinzen ? Loyal ? Unique
Posts: 213
|
Post by Kakita Kyoshi on Mar 1, 2011 10:06:16 GMT -5
Who in the world told you there was no disadvantage to having a Sworn Enemy? Was it Jay? Alison? If not, remember that the information is not concrete. The problem of it being sprung on you is an important part of the game, though. This being sprung on you means that -you- have to take responsibility for your character's actions. Your character can't just go willy-nilly and do everything in the world. Some actions have consequences. Just like if you were playing any kind of RPG where you had two factions at war, if you sided either side, their enemies would then hate you. Don't expect to walk into their camp unopposed and offer to help them out. They won't trust you. So, while I realize that there's not anything specific stating everywhere, it's also kind of a 'trust your experience' here. The game mechanic was not earlier been seen. So some of us made a decision based on the game mechanics (which is a legit way to play games). When now the game changes it makes the decision we made turn into something we would have not done if we had known that the game mechanic will change. In good games the game mechanics support character behaviour. In bad game design, you make decisions blind and get consequences you never wanted (which can lead to lose of interest in the game when characters become something the user don't expected). To change it takes the grasp one has on the game understanding and cheapens so all decisions made. Setting and game mechanics should work and in hand and both be clear to the player to make informed decisions.
|
|
Takezo
Dragon Clan
Shugyosha, Loyal retainer of Toturi, Dragon Champion-in-exile
Posts: 415
|
Post by Takezo on Mar 1, 2011 10:12:35 GMT -5
Well, in fairness I felt it was fairly clear that the jobs to support and undermine Kaneka were intended to generate in-game consequences relating to the Yobanjin War - by the time it was up, we had already seen several examples of in-game decisions having tangible effects, so there was plenty of evidence that "votes matter". As to details of the mechanics, I'll agree that the support/condemnation jobs *should* have been structured so that: - If you gain Kaneka as a sworn enemy, you cannot gain his favor - If you first gain his favor, and then LATER gain him as a sworn enemy (can't resist clicking for that token!) then you lose what favor you have. But that's why we call this a beta As for sworn enemy status itself, that's a pretty serious thing, and I can't really imagine it "going away" (but then, I probably have too much love of consequences... I'm sad that infamy can be gotten rid of!)
|
|
Kakita Shinji
Crane Clan
Laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone
Posts: 485
|
Post by Kakita Shinji on Mar 1, 2011 10:16:25 GMT -5
Well bad desing is bit harsh. I think Jay is making tremendous work and I still enjoy this game a lot. All I'm saying is that I had no reason to expect such consequences so far and it kinda sucks to learn hard way, just out of blue.
From now on I'll take such possibiliteis into consideration, but it get me thinking: how many more things will now screw my future playing. Is that crane enemy gonna forbid me from doing something cool? Will mantis enemy prevent me from entering some special location?
|
|
Takezo
Dragon Clan
Shugyosha, Loyal retainer of Toturi, Dragon Champion-in-exile
Posts: 415
|
Post by Takezo on Mar 1, 2011 10:23:55 GMT -5
Well, on balance, consider that those who clicked through both jobs and are deprived of this one are, in the end, netting the same number of tokens as those players who disciplined themselves to ONLY play one side in the argument (and thus were "deprived" of one job) but now *can* play this one. So there's actually no net loss for powergaming versus roleplaying. In defense of the game design, I should point out that Alison has commented on multiple occasions that this is in the spirit of an "extended home game", the sort that would be played at table with a GM, snacks, dice and so on, and such games are seldom very transparent in their consequences
|
|
Tamori Koichi
Dragon Clan
Dragon Clan * Shugenja * Earth * Void * Yamabushi * Duelist
Posts: 228
|
Post by Tamori Koichi on Mar 1, 2011 10:24:32 GMT -5
I would have to agree with Setsuro on this one. *Gasps*
I honestly do not see anything wrong with how this played out. You slander the Shogun at court, of course he's not going to trust you with his battle plans. After all you might be helping the enemy for all he knows.
I am on the anti-Shogun side of this conflict, so I wasn't really surprised. I guess the problem I share with others here is that the additions are "biased" for the pro-Shogun guys. There's no balancing factor, like a job that the anti-Shogun can do.
I have no idea if Jay/Alison has anything planned for the future to add something like that, so I really don't have any complaints with them. The two of them have always accommodated the comments and suggestions of people here at the forums, so a little respect for them wouldn't hurt.
|
|
Isawa Kinen
Phoenix Clan
All is equal before the Void.
Posts: 117
|
Post by Isawa Kinen on Mar 1, 2011 10:25:23 GMT -5
Well, on balance, consider that those who clicked through both jobs and are deprived of this one are, in the end, netting the same number of tokens as those players who disciplined themselves to ONLY play one side in the argument (and thus were "deprived" of one job) but now *can* play this one. Well said.
|
|
Tamori Koichi
Dragon Clan
Dragon Clan * Shugenja * Earth * Void * Yamabushi * Duelist
Posts: 228
|
Post by Tamori Koichi on Mar 1, 2011 10:31:03 GMT -5
Well, on balance, consider that those who clicked through both jobs and are deprived of this one are, in the end, netting the same number of tokens as those players who disciplined themselves to ONLY play one side in the argument (and thus were "deprived" of one job) but now *can* play this one. So there's actually no net loss for powergaming versus roleplaying. Partly untrue since it's not as balanced as all of us would want. Some anti-Shogun *like me* ONLY played one side, and now we can't play this new one.
|
|
|
Post by Bayushi Sasori on Mar 1, 2011 10:31:20 GMT -5
I for one (a double talker if you like) don't mind so much having Kaneka as an enemy. Afterall, he does owe me a couple of favours, and that's just the way I like it. It's the Scorpion way. If he doesn't let me into his little coterie of advisors, I'm sure I'll get the information I want into such a meeting one way or another, plus i have enough Blackmail opportunities just lying around that I'm sure I'll hear all about what they say in their little club house.
I love my clan.
|
|
Kakita Shinji
Crane Clan
Laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone
Posts: 485
|
Post by Kakita Shinji on Mar 1, 2011 10:34:42 GMT -5
I honestly do not see anything wrong with how this played out. You slander the Shogun at court, of course he's not going to trust you with his battle plans. After all you might be helping the enemy for all he knows. I really feel I'm being missunderstood. I didn't say it's illogical. All I'm saying that so far there were no such situations, so it shouldn't be surprising that many people did both jobs. And it would be enough to say "guys this time there may be consequences of doing specific actions".
|
|
Takezo
Dragon Clan
Shugyosha, Loyal retainer of Toturi, Dragon Champion-in-exile
Posts: 415
|
Post by Takezo on Mar 1, 2011 10:36:54 GMT -5
Well, on balance, consider that those who clicked through both jobs and are deprived of this one are, in the end, netting the same number of tokens as those players who disciplined themselves to ONLY play one side in the argument (and thus were "deprived" of one job) but now *can* play this one. So there's actually no net loss for powergaming versus roleplaying. Partly untrue since it's not as balanced as all of us would want. Some anti-Shogun *like me* ONLY played one side, and now we can't play this new one. Point taken - I'm viewing this from the pro-Kaneka camp, I suppose. Nevertheless, from a game-in-toto perspective, I'm sure principled playing will be well-enough rewarded. There are many, many jobs which I have not played out of RP considerations, but I seem to be doing well enough... and it makes the game more interesting, narratively, from my view.
|
|
Tamori Koichi
Dragon Clan
Dragon Clan * Shugenja * Earth * Void * Yamabushi * Duelist
Posts: 228
|
Post by Tamori Koichi on Mar 1, 2011 10:45:48 GMT -5
Nevertheless, from a game-in-toto perspective, I'm sure principled playing will be well-enough rewarded. There are many, many jobs which I have not played out of RP considerations, but I seem to be doing well enough... and it makes the game more interesting, narratively, from my view. Quoted for truth. I have no doubt something will turn up for our side evidently. I have always enjoyed since the start how player actions are constantly changing the game like with the Black Scrolls during Winter Court, etc. Patience really is a virtue.
|
|