Kakita Kyoshi
Banned
Crane Clan ? Samurai ? Duelist ? Enlightened ? Hero ? Kenshinzen ? Loyal ? Unique
Posts: 213
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Post by Kakita Kyoshi on Mar 1, 2011 10:58:06 GMT -5
As to details of the mechanics, I'll agree that the support/condemnation jobs *should* have been structured so that: - If you gain Kaneka as a sworn enemy, you cannot gain his favor - If you first gain his favor, and then LATER gain him as a sworn enemy (can't resist clicking for that token!) then you lose what favor you have. This sounds good. But it should be clear before someone doing the missions that one side can overrule the other. And maybe it should not always be the 'bad' side that overrules the good one. Sometimes it should be possible to become a supporter of something even when one was at first against it (there are people out there who actually change their mind on certain things, so that should be possible for characters too). But that's why we call this a beta Do we? Will the characters then one day all get deleted when the actual game starts? As for sworn enemy status itself, that's a pretty serious thing, and I can't really imagine it "going away" (but then, I probably have too much love of consequences... I'm sad that infamy can be gotten rid of!) I could save my enemies life for example. No thing in the world is set in stone, people always change. And on the Infamy thing, I think it is nice implemented in the game it cost many points of Glory to get rid of it, and it allows people who just misclick once to get rid of it to enjoy there character again. You know, games are about having fun... Well bad desing is bit harsh. I think Jay is making tremendous work and I still enjoy this game a lot. All I'm saying is that I had no reason to expect such consequences so far and it kinda sucks to learn hard way, just out of blue. True, maybe I am a little harsh. I tend to be much less so if design things are handled transparent and are talked about before they get implemented. That I point out flaws doesn't mean that I like the game. Taking the time to write my critics here shows that I care about the game and not just leave. So there's actually no net loss for powergaming versus roleplaying. I don't believe that between powergaming and roleplaying has to be a gap. Well designed games make it possible to do both without hindering each other. That game mechanics are not important for character-play or storytelling is a myth, created by people who had no clue how much game mechanics can support both. In defense of the game design, I should point out that Alison has commented on multiple occasions that this is in the spirit of an "extended home game", the sort that would be played at table with a GM, snacks, dice and so on, and such games are seldom very transparent in their consequences sure in pen & paper games there are things that happen without the players know them before. But when they make decisions that can change there character I try as a GM to give as much transparency as possible. I always tell clearly what the target numbers are they have to roll when they try something. And my players are always the main driver of the campaign I game master. So my game is very transparent, and I heard often because of that how much people like to play with me as a GM. Telling the stories together with my players is far more interesting than just to railroad them. I am on the anti-Shogun side of this conflict, so I wasn't really surprised. I guess the problem I share with others here is that the additions are "biased" for the pro-Shogun guys. There's no balancing factor, like a job that the anti-Shogun can do. Yes, another mission that the people can do who have him as enemy would have been nice (even someone could say that the mission who gained one in the first place the enemy was the balancing mission already). I hope that the missions you can't do if you have a certain enemy will be implemented better in the future. Always with clear choices between which direction to go. And not in a way that let the NPC look like he's a moron.
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Post by Bayushi Sasori on Mar 1, 2011 11:27:09 GMT -5
Well, in fairness I felt it was fairly clear that the jobs to support and undermine Kaneka were intended to generate in-game consequences relating to the Yobanjin War - by the time it was up, we had already seen several examples of in-game decisions having tangible effects, so there was plenty of evidence that "votes matter". As to details of the mechanics, I'll agree that the support/condemnation jobs *should* have been structured so that: - If you gain Kaneka as a sworn enemy, you cannot gain his favor - If you first gain his favor, and then LATER gain him as a sworn enemy (can't resist clicking for that token!) then you lose what favor you have. But that's why we call this a beta As for sworn enemy status itself, that's a pretty serious thing, and I can't really imagine it "going away" (but then, I probably have too much love of consequences... I'm sad that infamy can be gotten rid of!) Actually no, you can have sworn enemies that owe you favours, that's implicit in the background, and in courtly behaviour. That's how politics work. There is no reason why one should override the other. On another note, can anyone tell me what this job drops? Just so I know what I'm missing out on.
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Kakita Kyoshi
Banned
Crane Clan ? Samurai ? Duelist ? Enlightened ? Hero ? Kenshinzen ? Loyal ? Unique
Posts: 213
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Post by Kakita Kyoshi on Mar 1, 2011 11:31:42 GMT -5
On another note, can anyone tell me what this job drops? Just so I know what I'm missing out on. I hope it's not a tactician, would hate it to miss that again...
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Kitsuki Yuushahime
Dragon Clan
This person sometimes posts things that are tl;dr
Courtier Magistrate Ambassador Daimyo
Posts: 1,140
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Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Mar 1, 2011 11:52:09 GMT -5
It's something minor that you all no doubt have - mastery is the fan of command item. So you're not missing anything in all likelihood
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Kakita Kyoshi
Banned
Crane Clan ? Samurai ? Duelist ? Enlightened ? Hero ? Kenshinzen ? Loyal ? Unique
Posts: 213
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Post by Kakita Kyoshi on Mar 1, 2011 12:00:34 GMT -5
It's something minor that you all no doubt have - mastery is the fan of command item. So you're not missing anything in all likelihood Okay, that one I have. But I don't think it's so minor and that everybody has it...
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Post by Jay Luo on Mar 1, 2011 12:03:53 GMT -5
Well, it is interesting how much controversy this single new mission has generated. I am sorry if it has caused some heartache. Players here have asked for some transparency on this, so let me address some of the issues that have been raised in this thread.
* Yes, it is correct that before this update, having "Sworn Enemy: X" had no in-game effect, either positive or negative (except as a prereq for Challenge of the Mirumoto). However, I think it is somewhat disingenuous for anyone to claim "I didn't know having the Shogun as a Sworn Enemy would have negative implications!"
* There is not currently a way to get rid of "Sworn Enemies". I'm a little reluctant to add something like that unless it made sense in terms of the game setting. There are countless samurai stories about revenge, and very few about forgiveness.
* In case it is still not clear, items described "Ally: X" and "Sworn Enemy: X" are intended to have in-game ramifications for your player character. Your choice of friends helps define who your character is. Even more so your choice of enemies. Allies can open doors, while enemies will sometimes close doors for your character. (Occasionally, the reverse may be true as well.) Right now there are few actions that use "Sworn Enemy" as a key, but mostly this is because this feature has only been added recently.
* Yes, it IS now possible for missions to block you from performing them if you have certain items in your possession. There were enough situations where this would've been a good thing (e.g. to prevent doing both sides of Challenge of the Mirumoto, or lobbying for both sides of certain political debates) that it felt worth adding. This does mean that in some cases, your character will not be able to complete every single action that is presented; however, this is intentional - your choices are meant to shape your character's destiny.
* The "pro-Shogun" side won the debate in Imperial Court, so currently their star is ascendant, but I expect there will be "anti-Shogun" actions sometime in the future.
Hope that helps explain things a bit!
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Post by Daidoji Hikori on Mar 1, 2011 12:08:57 GMT -5
Thank you very much Jay sama for clearing things out. But what happens when one gets an ally and an enemy from the same clan through two different missions? Lets say one got mantis ally at the short story mission and mantis enemy voting against them?
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Post by Shoju on Mar 1, 2011 12:12:28 GMT -5
I truly like the idea of their being more options like this, where by doing one thing, you can't do another.
I am, for all intents and purposes, locked out of doing anything that requires "Max taint 1". Why? Because there is no way in the world that I could possibly do seek relief from the taint 1384 times.
It was an in game decision I made. I chose to play the tainted bloodspeaker. I chose to steal villagers and sacrifice them to make undead. I chose to recruit goblins and then go pester the crab.
Would I have a problem if my Goblin Warmonger position would have locked me out of 20 goblin winter? Nope. It would have made sense.
I for one, and wholly in favor of seeing more actions locked / changed / added that make your choice significant, and introduce more rewards and penalties for taking a position on something.
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Kitsuki Yuushahime
Dragon Clan
This person sometimes posts things that are tl;dr
Courtier Magistrate Ambassador Daimyo
Posts: 1,140
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Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Mar 1, 2011 12:35:30 GMT -5
Thanks for the explanation Jay, that was most kind of you. I am in agreement with the direction you're taking the game in and more emphasis on the destiny of characters brought about by their own actions. It'll cause more responsibility rather than click everything approaches. I echo Hikori's fears of getting allies and enemies from different missions though but I am fairly sure you also have that in mind and won't let it cause a problem.
Good luck with other things you do with the game and thanks for all your hard work. The explanations and player involvement through listening to votes are, in my mind, both very pleasing traits to see from a game designer and make me even happier to play ^_^
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Shosuro Ichiro
Scorpion Clan
Shosuro Family Daimyo*Courtier*Diplomat*Actor*Spy
Posts: 241
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Post by Shosuro Ichiro on Mar 1, 2011 12:39:00 GMT -5
I am also pleased that this step is being taken, finally. I think all of the players should make tough choices. This way it makes characters more unique and favorable in the their eyes as well.
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Kakita Kyoshi
Banned
Crane Clan ? Samurai ? Duelist ? Enlightened ? Hero ? Kenshinzen ? Loyal ? Unique
Posts: 213
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Post by Kakita Kyoshi on Mar 1, 2011 12:53:42 GMT -5
Thanks Jay for taking you time to bring some transparency into the discussion (even if it would have been nice to have that much earlier). * Yes, it is correct that before this update, having "Sworn Enemy: X" had no in-game effect, either positive or negative (except as a prereq for Challenge of the Mirumoto). However, I think it is somewhat disingenuous for anyone to claim "I didn't know having the Shogun as a Sworn Enemy would have negative implications!" I had done the mission against him before knowing what I could get there. I as a player was angry back then because he moved his army before I could get the Tactician soul. In character I justified it with his move without waiting for the Emperor's blessing on this. So I earned Kanaka's enmity, without knowing that I would get it or what it would mean. There was no indication before that a mission reward could have negative consequences (when I saw I got the Shogun as Enemy I suspected that I will see one day a consequence to have that). So the problem was not having it or not, but to take a mission without knowing what consequences that might have (since we the the reward not before we do it). And I think it would not be a good solution to always look into the forums before doing anything to know if there might drop an enemy. * There is not currently a way to get rid of "Sworn Enemies". I'm a little reluctant to add something like that unless it made sense in terms of the game setting. There are countless samurai stories about revenge, and very few about forgiveness. Sure, but at least to all the enemies so far in the game there should be a way to get rid of them. We got them before there was any bad thing that could happen. Know to punish us for something we didn't know could happen is not fun in games (even it happens in reality quite often, but games should not necessary simulate reality, except they are designed as simulations, but so far I considered EE as a storytelling game). * In case it is still not clear, items described "Ally: X" and "Sworn Enemy: X" are intended to have in-game ramifications for your player character. Your choice of friends helps define who your character is. Even more so your choice of enemies. Allies can open doors, while enemies will sometimes close doors for your character. (Occasionally, the reverse may be true as well.) Right now there are few actions that use "Sworn Enemy" as a key, but mostly this is because this feature has only been added recently. At moment I am considered here Kakita daimyo, but also I have a Crane Enemy (think it is normal to have enemies). Wonder if that means one day that I can not vote or help my clan because of that enemy. I see enemies as opportunities to tell stories, not as a way to prevent players from doing things. * Yes, it IS now possible for missions to block you from performing them if you have certain items in your possession. There were enough situations where this would've been a good thing (e.g. to prevent doing both sides of Challenge of the Mirumoto, or lobbying for both sides of certain political debates) that it felt worth adding. This does mean that in some cases, your character will not be able to complete every single action that is presented; however, this is intentional - your choices are meant to shape your character's destiny. As it should be! But it would be better if I can make informed decisions, knowing what consequences are to expect (for example which missions drop an enemy, not necessary what that enemy will make in the future). * The "pro-Shogun" side won the debate in Imperial Court, so currently their star is ascendant, but I expect there will be "anti-Shogun" actions sometime in the future. Can I have a mission to kill him in a duel or something like that... He is my enemy, and so I want to deal with him in such a way. I really want to kill him Kaneka now, because he did not show any thanks for me helping him (have two favours with him, but he things I am not worthy to be invited to plan the battle just because of words at court, everybody knows that courtiers talk much when they day is long).
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Moto Yoee
Spider Clan
The Dark Clown
Posts: 194
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Post by Moto Yoee on Mar 1, 2011 13:43:27 GMT -5
Thank you very much Jay sama for clearing things out. But what happens when one gets an ally and an enemy from the same clan through two different missions? Lets say one got mantis ally at the short story mission and mantis enemy voting against them? That's a very good question, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd like to have it answered.
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Bayushi Senshi
Scorpion Clan
Scorpion Clan * Clan Champion * Samurai * Kensai * Experienced * Loyal * Unique
Posts: 1,891
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Post by Bayushi Senshi on Mar 1, 2011 14:03:07 GMT -5
Ok, this is a message directed at Kenshi, and I would appreciate a concise response to this: I shouldn't need to quote you to say that you believe in complete transparency in role-playing games. As a gm myself as well as a player, I believe in the strength of surprise and the absence of metagaming. I cannot believe that by divulging all the information about a game in advance makes the experience any fun for any of the players.
Would you take that as far by saying in game, "If you do that action in combat, enemies a, b, and c will run away?" If players act on this information its called metagaming. Metagaming, in case you are unaware, is when players act upon knowledge that they do not know in character.
Transparency breeds metagaming, a cardinal sin in rpgs.
Other then that however, wheres the fun in a game if I can't be surprised as a result? Using Yuusha's Mass Effect 2 reference. I had no idea if I or my friends were going to live or die. As a result of my choices I lost 3 members of my party and was on the edge of my seat as I ran from the explosion. I REALLY liked those 3 characters. Do I want to go back and change it so I get what I want? NO. Those happened as a result of my actions, and I loved the game for it.
Edge of the seat excitement, let me tell ya.
Sorry if this seemed long winded, but I felt metagaming should be brought to this discussion. Thank you for your explanation, Jay, I agree on each point 100%.
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Post by Daigotsu Karteru on Mar 1, 2011 14:07:20 GMT -5
My thinking is that, if giving an express spoiler of what you will get from mastery is too much, at least having the mission description indicate with a little more foreboding about the potential to gain an enemy.
there I was, in court, meekly expressing concern over the march on the yobanjin. I expected something on the order of a Soul like "cautious" or something. I immediately knew that the ire of kaneka would come back to bite me in the butt.
I am a talented scout, a Goju Ninja free of taint, and I have much to contribute to the strategy of the upcoming battle, my Shogun. I have visited the camps of the yobanjin unseen many times.
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Shosuro Aroru
Scorpion Clan
Scorpion Clan Ninja * Duelist
Posts: 625
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Post by Shosuro Aroru on Mar 1, 2011 14:17:45 GMT -5
...All that sounds good Jay, although your plans for the future seem disconcerting. For the Shogun favor/enemy it makes sense being excluding since there is only one shogun. However, for the clan sworn enemies/allies those should never be exclusive. They're all just random clan members, they don't say your sworn enemy is a daimyo and your ally is a putz. The enemy shouldn't automatically be more powerful than the ally.
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