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Post by Mirumoto Shigekazu on Aug 17, 2011 9:28:56 GMT -5
We all sick of of neutrality of the Scorpion - Hantei Supporters, Toturi Supporters and Scorpions themselves. It seems that we would never get the 60% majority on neither side. It is a good moment for use of "Games at Court" competition in Palace of Crimson Shadows. In my opinion we should let vote 7 samurai: 3 top Courtiers in the Competition and Daymio of each Scorpion Family. Of course we could modify these proportions: winner and Clan daymio could both have 2 votes for example or only daymios and winner or only Clan Daymio and 3 Top could vote - we can discuss it. But I think that first option is the best. What do you think of it? Isn't it the fastest and still reasonable way to resolve it?
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Asahina Yukihime
Crane Clan
Crane Clan Ikazuchi
* Air * Water * Shugenja * Artisan * Asahina Family Daimyo *
Posts: 750
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Post by Asahina Yukihime on Aug 17, 2011 9:43:15 GMT -5
Hum... I think all the clans should have the same criteria >.o It feels quite "unfair" to change (the 60% criteria) now. If the Scorpion manage to remain neutral... well, it may have some fun outcomes too. I mean... to me... neutrality sounds like a possible resolution (a kind smart one that fits for the scorpion in my opinion). Without loosing samurais at war they can maybe rule the empire when war is done with everyone else Isn't the kabuki play counting to decide to who they will side?
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
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Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Aug 17, 2011 9:55:10 GMT -5
I must agree with Yukihime-san. Waiting until the last possible second in order to have the biggest advantage in a conflict, all the while appearing neutral, sounds very Scorpion to me.
Besides, they do have the Kuroiban, who's to say they're not delaying their actions because they're aware of the true enemies of the Empire?
And last, but not least, I also agree that we should all be judged by the same criteria. It wouldn't be fair to change it midways just because the result doesn't please someone.
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Post by Mirumoto Shigekazu on Aug 17, 2011 9:57:11 GMT -5
They have ruled Empire once. For few (do I remember good it was six?) days and after that whole Clan was disbanded. In Poland we call it "Scorpion's poo" because in polish word "poo" sounds similar to "coup" (and is spelled "kupa").
Why Kabuki Play should count to decide? It is just attending with ambassadors and friends. Good fun in those troubled times.
EDIT: Rules should be changed if they do not fit. Now it seems they do not fit and make people unhappy becouse they must grind Scorpion Favors when they could do something else.
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Bayushi Hiryu
Scorpion Clan
Scorpion Clan Ninja*Dragon Clan Ally*Samurai*Courtier* Tactician*Chrysanthemum*Inexp Hiryu*Unique
Posts: 217
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Post by Bayushi Hiryu on Aug 17, 2011 9:57:45 GMT -5
As a Scorpion, I personally feel that the 60% criteria is too difficult. We have 55%, which means a 10% margin, and most of our Clan's leadership (Champion, family daimyos...) behind the Toturi camp, which means that both the main forum-active players and the wider Clan base are in favour of the same camp. I would therefore love the 60% threshold to be lifted in favour of a simple majority.
The kabuki play is currently only providing favors to the supporters of each camp (including the Spider, with which I fail to see how a loyal Scorpion could side).
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Asahina Yukihime
Crane Clan
Crane Clan Ikazuchi
* Air * Water * Shugenja * Artisan * Asahina Family Daimyo *
Posts: 750
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Post by Asahina Yukihime on Aug 17, 2011 10:17:16 GMT -5
Hum... not all the scorpions are loyal to the Scorpion (some of them may be loyal to something else ) I mean no disrespect to champions here and families and this or that but... the clicking players are more numerous than forum players. If we consider all players (based on...don't know it's the glory points that makes a daimyou?) would the ones taking champions/daimyous positions here still be champions and daimyous? (I'm don't know, honest question here... just want to organize my thoughts on how strong is the "clan leadership" argument o.o) Anyway, I don't see why letting them "remain neutral" would be a problem (except by the fact that democracy should not be an option to Rokuganis ) at all if this is the voting result
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Aug 17, 2011 10:28:03 GMT -5
EDIT: Rules should be changed if they do not fit. Now it seems they do not fit and make people unhappy becouse they must grind Scorpion Favors when they could do something else. I agree, but they shouldn't be changed amidst a war or a competition. Besides, while devoid of "special actions", Scorpion members may still participate in the war through the general actions. And a neutrality now may mean special actions for them during the later stages of the war. Forcing a result would be most unwise, imo.
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Bayushi Haruka
Scorpion Clan
OOC Cleanup Crew
Samurai? Battle Maiden? Cavalry? Paragon of Courage? Friend of the Lion
Posts: 1,054
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Post by Bayushi Haruka on Aug 17, 2011 11:13:00 GMT -5
I have never felt that the 60% margin was too steep a goal to reach. This was a fair and cross-clan requirement for everyone to meet. We happened to be a clan divided, and that is the simple nature of it. As much as you think you're sick of the indecisiveness of the clan, don't even ask how I feel then However it of course is now apparent based on those numbers that currently neutrality is the only thing we can achieve based on the passionate defenders on each side taking their time and their resources to vote for what they believe in. Jay has already stated that he is working on something to bring this to a sensible resolution. I somehow doubt a competition is going to be appropriate as a method to reach a decision. Frankly we'd be wading straight into the complaints of 'point stacking' again. I personally know that they've devoted their entire character to something and they should of course be rewarded for it when the time comes for their character to shine amongst the rest. However on that same note, these sorts of displays of prowess have never been used before to sway an entire clan's actions. I don't believe they ever should due to the familiar situation of 'one person controlling an entire clan's path' as with what happened with the dragon. I trust Jay to allow both sides to sensibly represent their beliefs as I truly doubt he seeks any further division in the clan. Never have passions been so strong in the civil war, and I've nothing but admiration for the way he's handled every part. In character, I'm remaining strictly to roleplaying aspects, but out of character my entire efforts have been on ensuring that things don't get out of hand, but also that everyone is heard out and treated fairly. While your idea is intriguing, and I do admire your desire to apply skills in new ways and for more important pieces of the story, I simply show concern in the fair representation of both sides in this conflict. These are my thoughts, and that is all. :3
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Post by Bayushi Hiromitsu on Aug 18, 2011 19:50:35 GMT -5
I also do agree with Yukihime Asahina-san. There are several possibilities to be explored. And even the chance to maintain neutral, must exist.
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Yasuki Chad
Crane Clan
Crab Clan
*Crab Clan Courtier *Experienced *Samurai *Daimyo *Hero *Experienced *Commander
Posts: 476
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Post by Yasuki Chad on Aug 18, 2011 19:55:48 GMT -5
An alternative would be to declare for the side with the most votes, but if the sixty-percent is still not reached, the scorpion war actions are not as effective. (to show that there is a huge divide in their clan)
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Post by Isawa Goro on Aug 19, 2011 0:59:08 GMT -5
Yeah, neutrality is a viable option and historically almost all civil wars have seen some groups who have maintained a neutral or at least non-belligerent position at least for some time.
Gameplay wise as long as Scorpion players don't miss out on getting some special actions, I don't think they have any reason to complain.
And I agree with Yukahime that the people who occupy positions of power in the forums shouldn't have their votes counted any more than any other player's.
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Kitsuki Yuushahime
Dragon Clan
This person sometimes posts things that are tl;dr
Courtier Magistrate Ambassador Daimyo
Posts: 1,140
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Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Aug 19, 2011 1:29:25 GMT -5
This is a tough one.
Isn't it also possible that whoever wins will punish the Scorpion for not directly assisting them? Then again, I suppose that's a possible advantage for the Scorpion - they'll get less punished than those Clans directly on the losing side.
I would prefer it if the Scorpion joined a side myself but it's just that - a preference. I think it could well make sense for them to be neutral. A few actions for players who are generally neutral would be appreciated actually. I know some Dragon who haven't joined either side for example. We just want to investigate all the rumours and so on!
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
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Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Aug 19, 2011 1:58:47 GMT -5
Isn't it also possible that whoever wins will punish the Scorpion for not directly assisting them? Then again, I suppose that's a possible advantage for the Scorpion - they'll get less punished than those Clans directly on the losing side. They won't be "punished" if they play their cards right. It wouldn't be the first time a faction stays neutral and awaits either a crucial event to join a side, thus finishing a war more decisively and with less losses for itself; or the end of the hostilities to assume a leadership position during the rebuilding of what was lost. Personally, I would've stayed neutral, but I thought fighting in the war would be an important experience for Manji and would help him grow up. As I'm not currently playing any P&P RPGs I also wanted to write something interesting, just to exercise the imagination
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Asahina Yukihime
Crane Clan
Crane Clan Ikazuchi
* Air * Water * Shugenja * Artisan * Asahina Family Daimyo *
Posts: 750
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Post by Asahina Yukihime on Aug 19, 2011 7:32:19 GMT -5
The Scorpion had shown interest in attacking the Spider before (if I got it right... these Scorpion guys... never know ;P). If the Crab is really "leaving" the Wall (even if not completely) people and stuff from the other side could find it is a chance to strike. Would be a great opportunity for the Scorpion to play the heroes, aid the Crab, fight shadowlands, whatever they like, take over some territories while others are busy (it could happen at any unattended border, of course, problems would come later). This is just an instance of possibility. I think neutrality have many possibilities (of course, I don't know about Jay's possibilities/time to turn it all in codding so, may be having only 2 factions in this war is a requirement of technical nature... if this is the case these arguments are invalid ). I also think it totally fits the Scorpion "loyal to the Empire, not the emperor" better than it would fit to any other clan (in my opinion, I'm not playing a Scorpion right now, and I understand if the clan have another image of itself). Yet, this neutrality is totally "virtual", as the players who declared for one or other side are able to take a lot of the war actions anyway. Those who feel the urge to fight for something are still able to do something about. In other words, I don't see any problem in game mechanics too, it's not like Scorpion is "stuck" with nothing to do (at least not yet anyway). As a player I'm sooooo hoping for something to happen on the middle of the war to make all those samurais fighting against each other to fight besides each other against something "eviler" (I know the game is much more about clan vs clan, but it is not my favorite approach ) just dreaming about.
Ow, and I found my answer, daimyous and top players here are really top glory people on the clicking game too, it doesn't really change my mind about the weight of their clicks but... great job on clan cohesion o.o I would like mine to be like it (should I change? *kidding*)
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Post by Bayushi Hiromitsu on Aug 19, 2011 7:49:24 GMT -5
Given the choice, whether to rule a corrupt and failing empire; or to challenge the fates for another throw - a better throw - against one's destiny... what was a king to do? But does one even truly have a choice? One can only match, move by move, the machinations of fate... and thus defy the tyrannous stars. (Kain, in the last Legacy of Kain) That's how I feel right now about the recent activities
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