Suzume Satoru
Sparrow Clan
* Sparrow Clan Champion * Suzume Family Daimyo * Warrior Poet *
Posts: 76
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Post by Suzume Satoru on Oct 15, 2011 18:18:13 GMT -5
So for You he is a suspect because noone roleplayed him to tell that he is innocent? Its as good a reason as any. You work with what you have.
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Oct 15, 2011 19:27:10 GMT -5
Considering that we cannot RP members of the Royal Family, Seppun, Otomo or other VIP, for obvious reasons, I would argue that no, it isn't a good reason. After all, players can create any plot hooks or ideas they want. I can, per example, create a topic where I say that Kaneka was not only allied with the Yobanjin, trying to create an excuse to start a war, but is also doing so because he became tainted, now acting to further the interests of the Shadowlands within the Empire. But, seriously, I wouldn't use that as a base for anything.
I prefer to justify my actions based on events that actually had missions in the clicking game. Although I may RP things that are outside it, I don't use this RP to justify my actions. But, it's just my personal preference and I won't criticize anyone. To each their own, I guess.
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Akodo Tomatsu
Lion Clan Mod
The Shining Lion
Lion Clan Champion?Samurai?Tactician?Loyal?Paragon of Sincerity?Defender of the Empire
Posts: 1,042
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Post by Akodo Tomatsu on Oct 15, 2011 19:29:31 GMT -5
Just popping in here to explain myself, what I meant was that since Jay is the Emperor's player, and I like to believe that he does everything in the game with purpose, the fact that he had Hantei specifically say nothing with regards to his innocence to be indicative that the waters were suppose to be muddy and the issue grey.
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Oct 15, 2011 19:49:59 GMT -5
I agree with what you just said Tomatsu, but I disagree with the conclusions taken by the Toturi supporters. I mean, after all, the Shogun works for the Emperor, protecting the Empire is in his job's description. And besides, I don't think anyone has the right to question the Emperor, except for the Heavens or his closest relatives (this is an Empire justified by supernatural creatures that govern the fate of the mortals, not a democracy without divine intervention).
Instead of arguing with the Emperor peacefully and seeking a resolution to his doubts, Kaneka raised a rebellion... I can't agree with that, no matter how it is sugarcoated. And people forget that a Samurai is supposed to follow his Lord unto death, not question his every step. One may counsel, one may disagree, but one must follow. If I was a Toturi supporter (and not a hengeyoukai), after the war, I would seppuku myself out of shame for going against the Celestial Order, even if I did believe that I did nothing more than my duty to the Empire by going against the weak rule of an unfit Emperor.
As I see it, such "sins", even when perfectly justified, can only be ultimately cleansed through seppuku. But, I also believe, that it would be unkind of me to judge other people based solely on my own standards and expect everyone to agree. So, I prefer, in this case, to "live and let live" and not to judge. Which is why I avoid these discussions and am trying to do actions that occur in parallel to the main war events.
On another note, I wish Sezaru could do something about this mess. Counsel his brothers for the good of the Empire, show us something that would halt the war, I don't know. I just wish he did something to alter the current course of events.
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Suzume Satoru
Sparrow Clan
* Sparrow Clan Champion * Suzume Family Daimyo * Warrior Poet *
Posts: 76
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Post by Suzume Satoru on Oct 15, 2011 19:53:17 GMT -5
On another note, I wish Sezaru could do something about this mess. Counsel his brothers for the good of the Empire, show us something that would halt the war, I don't know. I just wish he did something to alter the current course of events. Maybe he just needs some Samurai to find him and move him into action, eh? *wink wink, nudge nudge*
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Oct 15, 2011 19:59:39 GMT -5
Hahahaha, maybe I've just seen your update, Satoru. I'll post a suggestion to your question later and will bridge the gap for us to try including Mirumoto Machu in our discussion. Maybe he can help us reach a good answer.
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Yasuki Chad
Crane Clan
Crab Clan
*Crab Clan Courtier *Experienced *Samurai *Daimyo *Hero *Experienced *Commander
Posts: 476
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Post by Yasuki Chad on Oct 16, 2011 0:33:26 GMT -5
I do wish Sezaru would stop being such a bloody wallflower and do SOMETHING.
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Kitsuki Yuushahime
Dragon Clan
This person sometimes posts things that are tl;dr
Courtier Magistrate Ambassador Daimyo
Posts: 1,140
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Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Oct 16, 2011 2:11:26 GMT -5
.......yeah.....I'm getting the feeling from the comments here that my next line should be "Sorry I spoke!" Perhaps it was because the suggestion came from a Spider... However....I noted that there was a mention of "some" clans getting the option....hmmm....Spider didn't get the opportunity I noticed.....not sure who else....I do agree that you shouldn't have the opportunity to change sides should your clan openly support the particular leader... I know that a few people did like the idea....I agree that if the neutral idea was practical that you shouldn't be allowed to join up with either side again. It seems it has already been considered then and decided against....oh well....another idea killed in battled and denied the decency of the grave (other things not in Emerald Empire)! EDIT: Actually, no, wait a minute....Spider have been spurned by both Hantei and Kaneka....so they SHOULD be allowed the option.... *Coughs* Spider are not a Clan
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Kitsuki Yuushahime
Dragon Clan
This person sometimes posts things that are tl;dr
Courtier Magistrate Ambassador Daimyo
Posts: 1,140
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Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Oct 16, 2011 2:21:52 GMT -5
Also, don't forget Kaneka accused Hantei of the assassionations himself. Now, as much as you shouldn't accuse an Emperor... the status of Kaneka meant that anyone who spoke out against such claims was also breeching Rokugani etiquette. Kaneka's high status means his testimony is VERY strong. Unfortunately, as it is against the Emperor, it is more difficult. However, if a humble Crane courtier can accuse a family daimyo of some crime and be a witness then I don't see why someone of Kaneka's status (and being brother to the Emperor) cannot voice his own testimony. Unfortunately it was just that - testimony. No assassins were caught so none could say "yes I wasworking for Hantei!" or the like.
At Manji - Read through Tomatsu's posts. A Lord has a duty too. The Toturi people are suggesting Hantei broke that duty and therefore the oath of service was broken by him, not them.
Anyhow, we could go on about these as we always do forever but this is going severely off topic now. Could this thread be locked with its creators permission or could we go back to yes/no about the possibilities of switching sides or declaring neutrality?
If allowed, I would agree with Shige - there infamy and loss of honor hits should be VERY high. I think just allowing seppuku as we currently do is more than enough frankly.
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Oct 16, 2011 2:52:12 GMT -5
At Manji - Read through Tomatsu's posts. A Lord has a duty too. The Toturi people are suggesting Hantei broke that duty and therefore the oath of service was broken by him, not them. Still, how many rebellions have we heard of in the history of Rokugan? I do believe that, since an Emperor's rule is endorsed by the Heaven, if he does something really wrong, Heaven will intervene. A servant isn't simply absolved of his "oath of service" to a Lord every time someone accuses said Lord of a wrongdoing, otherwise there would be no Imperial government anywhere (which reminds me automatically of Thomas Hobbes' The Leviathan, he argues this point better than I would). A Lord has a duty? yes he does, but he isn't subjected to the judgment of his servants, otherwise we would have, at least, a parliament in Rokugan. The thing about Kaneka accusing the Emperor... the Emperor is still his Lord. If he wanted to do so he should have returned to Court and talked to him or to Sezaru about it (if that was to be a family problem, I see no reason why Sezaru couldn't mediate or be somehow involved). By accusing the Emperor and openly rebelling Kaneka sets a dangerous precedent that may compromise all future Emperor's authorities, in case he wins the civil war (that is, if he accused his own brother without proof and took the throne by force of arms, what would bar others from doing the same?). But yeah, I agree that those are philosophical and political questions (that many people hate to discuss) and will refrain from debating them further (mainly because its kinda complicated to discuss a magical Empire where the gods actually intervene in the politics of the realm). About the main topic, I understand Kumurus intention. I can see some samurai working as infiltrators for their sworn Emperor (be it Kaneka or Naseru) in their rivals' Clans but I agree that this should carry severe consequences (loss of honor and infamy gain). Neutrality or people from a Great Clan changing their allegiance because they disagree with their Lord is more complicated. Although perfectly understandable from a player's point of view, I struggle to see how it would fit the setting. A samurai may disagree with his Lord but openly disobeying him will either turn him into a ronin or force him to commit seppuku. EDIT: I know people will say that proof isn't really base for anything in Rokugan (save for the Kitsuki method) but if its the word of an Imperial officer against that of the Emperor... well, I think he should, at least, be able to make a solid claim. Otherwise, he is just abandoning Bushido and embracing Shourido.
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Kitsuki Yuushahime
Dragon Clan
This person sometimes posts things that are tl;dr
Courtier Magistrate Ambassador Daimyo
Posts: 1,140
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Post by Kitsuki Yuushahime on Oct 16, 2011 3:20:24 GMT -5
You might believe that but one had to be killed by his own Seppun guards due to his madness. Heaven doesn't intervene. And there have been many, many rebellions in Rokugan's history. It all depends what you define as a rebellion. Scorpion Clan coup? Various capital sieges by Clan forces? The acts of the Moto Khan? And so on...
And yes, he is subject to the judgment of his servants as otherwise a samurai's service would never be a two way thing. Why should I give armour and food to my samurai when I don't have to bother? Why should I do anything at all when I can just lay here and get food all day? No, Lords are expected to do certain things. If they fail to then they are usually replaced by an even greater Lord or they mysteriously disappear with their servants whistling innocently. It happens.
Also, the Emperor has not given his word so it is really just Kaneka's word vs... nobody. So the Emperor is currently guilty until he beats Kaneka in a duel or smething. It's a weird and odd first situation of its kind. Anyone of lower station and without a blood tie who mad such a claim would likely be killed by others rallying in defence of the Emperor. It is different for the Shogun though.
Anyhow, off topic-ness aside. I d agree with your assessment that it is a struggle to see how neutrality would fit the setting now.
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Post by Akodo Tsanuri on Oct 16, 2011 3:44:03 GMT -5
It's all an OOC explanation. and despite it may sometimes sound offensive, it is not ment to harm or ridicule anybody. If anybody found it offensive, I am deeply sorry. please contact me and I will try to fix it.
I don't really see any changes to be done now. whatever your thoughts were, if you decided and sworn your loyalty to one side, you have to keep your word. how do you imagine changing sides after so much time, 3 or even more grand battles and all? you think even if you reconsider now your former-enemies-now-allies will gladly take you in? you think they would even let you go into their camp so you can explain your behavior? in a few threads here both sides were nice cause we are all players and nobody want to spoil others fun. but in fact I don't think many Cranes will gladly welcome approaching Lion even if he didn't wear Toturi signs. he would probably be killed or seriously wounded and taken into custody. and it would be the same the other way round (with Crane approaching Lions)
let's say he somehow managed to survive and convinse them to let him talk with their commander. you think that commander will believe the traitor? maybe he is so afraid of dying, he would willingly swear to anybody? even if he was believed, tell me, who would want to have a servant, who betrayed his lord? if sb did something like this he would be thought to be a swine without honor nor dignity. if I were in this commander place, I'd personaly killed the traitor and send his head back to his people probably with some information what he did (that's Homura's way of thinking)
I can only think of one purpose for samurai to change the side, and it would be to secretly work his lord. but really really few samurai would think of doing sth like that. so it shouldn't be an option in fb game, just here, in rp threads. more over, even then you work for your true lord, so you do actions that help him
about neutrality - you sworn to your lord. you can't abandon him just like that, because "war is not fun anymore". same as earlier, I find it impossible in Rokugan standards
the only way would be like Shige-san said: huge infamy gain, huge honor loss, some sign of taitor and a bunch of his earlier mates hunting him down.
I won't talk about mechanics repercussions, cause they were pointed out earlier. that was just my explanation based on my understanding the rules of Rokugan. I don't think it's right topic to talk about emperor-shogun nor any other master-servant relationship, so I'll leave it aside. just about mad emperors - nobody would know how it really was because there are no data of anything like that. Ikoma and I think Shosuro (sorry, if mistaken) took care of that long ago. the two we heard about are just an echo of a scare that whose real monsters caused to their people (and that are probably just some peasants blabing, like ninja) in comparison any other ruthless dictator would be nice and calm.
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Post by Utaku Kasumi on Oct 16, 2011 4:10:14 GMT -5
Well, there are still those actions where you can swear your loyalty to Kaneka or Naseru. This is all I want to say... and you all - behave! Yoda-Cat is watching you!
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Post by Akodo Tsanuri on Oct 16, 2011 4:32:37 GMT -5
awww, how cute *.* *pats ears*
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Oct 16, 2011 12:37:16 GMT -5
Who gave ganja to that cat? ;D
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