Tamori Koichi
Dragon Clan
Dragon Clan * Shugenja * Earth * Void * Yamabushi * Duelist
Posts: 228
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Post by Tamori Koichi on Feb 28, 2012 4:46:19 GMT -5
I am very surprised to see that the supplying troops and strategic planning jobs count as battle ones... Supply and planning jobs had already counted for previous battles at other locations. It's not new so I don't see a reason why you should be surprised now..
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Post by Togashi Homsar on Feb 28, 2012 10:50:04 GMT -5
But at CoSS, I am att the same time proud and astonished by my fellow Dragon's toughness! There are still Dragon alive in this hell? Crushed between the two most powerful armies of the Empire, in the worst tactical position you can imagine? Without any support from any other allied clan? Impressive. *flex* Who wants tickets to the gun show?
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Post by Mirumoto Shigekazu on Feb 28, 2012 12:16:52 GMT -5
I still wonder when Toturi forces will gain advantage in this battle. When combined forces of Kaneka and Unicorn Clan arrived at the battlefield, Toturi side get major setback by deleting the most important action from the pool. Now Toturists have 7 actions with average cost of 23,3 fate, while Hanteists have 6 actions with average cost of 20 fate. Moreover new Hantei action is 1,5 times cheaper than both new Toturi action. Hanteists still have Fire Blossoms with required item easy to get, while Toturists have no such mission.
My question is: why army surrounded in the enemy lands by forces 2-3 times stronger still have advantage? When it will change (if ever)?
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Post by Isawa Okibi on Feb 28, 2012 12:55:27 GMT -5
Since the Hantei actions are so easy: I'll send you a Medium Infantry for every Bo Staff you send me.
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Enishi
Dragon Clan
Ninja * shadow * tattooed * Mad prophet of Nothing
Posts: 254
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Post by Enishi on Feb 28, 2012 12:56:45 GMT -5
And my question is: when will you guys aknowledge that light cavalry is "easy to get"?
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Post by Akodo Tsanuri on Feb 28, 2012 13:18:12 GMT -5
in the amounts necesary for this battle - it is not. for sure not easier than your fire blossom. and actions using LI cost more fate than your FB one.
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Post by Mirumoto Shigekazu on Feb 28, 2012 13:23:54 GMT -5
Not as easy as elixirs and you need two of them instead of one.
Okibi-san, I have plenty of medium infantry. I lack archers though. But I am high level player, somehow elite, and many lower-level players may not have Battle 100 or vast amounts of medium infantry. Chances are still equal (with large advantage for Hanteists in saved points from previous stage) where should be obvious advantage for Toturi forces.
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Post by Shoju on Feb 28, 2012 13:34:36 GMT -5
I have to disagree with the assertion that Light Cavalry is somehow not easy to get.
Light Cavalry:
(Follower = Req; Battle 1. Gives; Horsemanship 2, Battle 2) * GIFT: Unicorn (10 fate, 10 koku) * Dragon Heart Plain - On the Trail of the Bloodspeaker Cult (Req; Scouting reports, Hunting 30. Cost; Scouting reports, Scout) [R] * Dragon Heart Plain - Patrol with Ox clan riders (Req; Horsemanship 30. Cost; Rumor) [R] * East Hub Village - Patrol with the East Wind (Req; Horsemanship 4. Cost; n/a) [R] * Kyuden Miya - Ride the Grounds of Kyuden Miya (Req; Elegant Kimono, Horsemanship 5. Cost; n/a) [R] * Kyuden Seppun - Train with the Seppun Guard (Req; Kenjutsu 10. Cost; Seppun Favor) [R] * Kyuden Suzume - Guard Kyuden Suzume (Req; Kenjutsu 20 orInvestigation 20, not Plague Symptoms. Cost; n/a) [R] * Northern Steppes - Negotiate with the Yobanjin [-H, N] (Req; Yobanjin Retainer, Courtier 30. Cost; 1-2 Yobanjin Trinkets) [R] * Pleasure City - Hire Ronin (Req; Etiquette 20. Cost; 2 Gold) [R] * Shinden Horiuchi - Ride Around the Horiuchi Provinces (Req; Horsemanship 2. Cost; n/a) [R] * Shiro Ide - Ride Around the Countryside (Req; Horsemanship 2. Cost; n/a) [R] * Shiro Iuchi - Ride Through the Iuchi Plains (Req; Horsemanship 2. Cost; n/a) [R] * Shiro Morito - Gratitude of the Ox Clan (Req; Ox favor, Etiquette 25. Cost; Ox favor) [R] * Shiro Morito - Ride with the Morito (Req; Horsemanship 4. Cost; n/a) [R] * Shiro Moto - Audience with the Great Khan (Req; Courtier 2. Cost; Unicorn Favor) [R] * Shiro Moto - Ride with the Moto (Req; Horsemanship 2. Cost; n/a) [R] * Shiro Moto - Train with the Khol Army (Req; Kenjutsu 2. Cost; n/a) [R] * Shiro Shinjo - Groom Horses in the Stables [-G] (Req; Horsemanship 4. Cost; n/a) [R] * Shiro Shinjo - Practice with the Horsebow (Req; Kyujutsu 2. Cost; n/a) [R] * Shiro Shinjo - Recruit Additional Troops (Req; Chui, Horsemanship 10, minGlory 150. Cost; Unicorn Mon) [R] * Shiro Shinjo - Train Troops with a Lance (Req; Chui, Horsemanship 10. Cost; Recruits, Lance) [R] * Shiro Utaku Shojo - Ride Through the Utaku Plains (Req; Horsemanship 2. Cost; n/a) [R] * Shiro Utaku Shojo - Visit the Utaku Meadows (Req; n/a. Cost; n/a) [R]
Bolded actions can be done by ANYONE Regardless of clan affiliation, require minimal Horesemanship, no other item, and have absolutely no cost.
That is 10 actions that all yield Light Cavalry on a random drop, without incurring a glory or honor loss, or shelling out some sort of item to do so.
This, by definition, is not a hard drop to come by. If you want, I can show you hard items to come by that have been used in battles. We can start looking at the items that the Spider had to use against the Crab in that battle, Which would be the very definition of difficult to acquire, but I think that this should be enough to get this idea that Light Cavalry is somehow hard to come by off the table.
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Post by Hida Joji on Feb 28, 2012 14:09:16 GMT -5
Well, if you want to compare actions you need to do some sort of research into fate/click ratio.
Saying actions are cheaper/more expensive this/that item doesn't matter. It boils down to how much fate does a click cost on average.
New actions bring new ppl for tokens, new items bring ppl with lots of those items... but on the long run, and I believe 20K+ clicks is long run, it's down to how much fate you need for a click multiplied by the number of ppl doing it.
I don't know how much fate you expend to get a single alchemical elixir, but if it's 12 fate then Fire blossoms is a 30 fate/click action.
Kaneka's side math is harder to do because of all the actions leading to other actions... but the best outside item is light cavalry and that costs about 11-13 fate each.
My gut tells me Dragon still has the advantage but I'm loving the action chain Lion side is doing at the moment, makes clicking a process instead of a 2 click poney.
TLDR: Best actions matter, compare those. Rest is wonderfull storyline colour.
TLDR 2.0: IN ROKUGAN IT'S NOT THE YEAR OF THE DRAGON!
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Shosuro Aroru
Scorpion Clan
Scorpion Clan Ninja * Duelist
Posts: 625
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Post by Shosuro Aroru on Feb 28, 2012 14:13:49 GMT -5
...So are these the last actions to be added then Jay? The timeline you gave of 8-12 weeks leaves up to 4 weeks for this battle still.
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Feb 28, 2012 14:27:33 GMT -5
TLDR 2.0: IN ROKUGAN IT'S NOT THE YEAR OF THE DRAGON! Tell that to my And to those wondering why the Toturi forces doesn't have a bigger advantage (whatever the Jigoku was meant by that), I'll explain it once and for all so that everyone may understand. On one side you have a Lion, on the other side you have a Unicorn and in the middle you have a Dragon... A DRAGON! Of course we kick ass. This battle simply reflects our inherent badassery In case anyone has forgotten
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Enishi
Dragon Clan
Ninja * shadow * tattooed * Mad prophet of Nothing
Posts: 254
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Post by Enishi on Feb 28, 2012 14:48:13 GMT -5
I don't know how much fate you expend to get a single alchemical elixir, but if it's 12 fate then Fire blossoms is a 30 fate/click action. Actually, it's 16 fate, making Fire blossoms a 34 fate action. Add to that the chain synergy on Toturi's side and I think it's at least even... at least. Your opinion may vary though. I know I'd be happy to have a way to use those Rallying Cries the Dragon monks seem to think I could use. I guess everyone has their own problems ;D
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Post by Shoju on Feb 28, 2012 15:50:04 GMT -5
My opinion from this is completely based on the fact that you are clicking actions that have no item cost. You are only investing fate into getting the drop.
From a Spider's perspective, I find it really hard to consider that a "hard to get" item, when I have items that require blowing 60+ fate in 3 different locations on 3 different jobs so that I can end up with 1 of the troop that was required for a battle.
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Post by Jay Luo on Feb 28, 2012 17:52:02 GMT -5
I hadn't realized that "brilliant victory" had gotten so scarce - in hindsight, I should've had some of the Crossroad Castle actions drop them. In the meantime I have changed "Receive Honors from Emerald Champion" to require 2 Captured Lion Standard instead of 1 Brilliant Victory + 1 Captured Lion Standard. Hope that seems fair!
Regarding Castle of the Swift Sword, two "Toturi supporter" actions were added, as opposed to one "Hantei supporter" action. I think the Toturi actions generally have better synergy with respect to items dropped and items used, also. On the other hand, the Dragon player base has proven extremely tenacious. Hard to say what the ultimate outcome will be.
Good luck, and have fun!
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Feb 28, 2012 18:00:44 GMT -5
Thanks a lot Jay, that's very thoughtful of you ;D
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