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Post by Akodo Tsanuri on Apr 21, 2012 17:26:23 GMT -5
OOC: location is called Castle of the Swift Sword. Not Castle and City of the Swift Sword with its Villages and Fields. do you really want to stick to historical, tactical and logic laws? I would not recommend it to you. really, not now. So, wait, I don't remember any thread saying that you took the city or station in the city. so, if you weren't there, you had to attack the city. surprise suprise - there are citizens! they get killed when they are attacked. at least some. with bombs - much some.
it was you to first say something about heralds, not us.
Yeah, some people survived. Good thing you agree it was people from assaults, not from the castle. That's exactly what I said.
I don't recall anyone saying you were drinking blood or raping sb. don't put in our mouth something we didn't say. I said you burned innocent people. that is truth. tell me it is not.
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Apr 21, 2012 17:34:17 GMT -5
To further clarify things, so that we may try to reach a mutual agreement, I'll post here a reference from the L5R wikia (not ideal, I know, but it serves its purpose): l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Castle_of_the_Swift_Sword_DojoAgain, I must stress that the castle was destroyed, with all of its inhabitants, but Jay's description says absolutely nothing about any other part of the Lion province surrounding the castle. As I see it, you are simply trying to create a convenient tragedy to fuel the hatred your character feels for having lost the battle. If you can prove otherwise, please do so. Show me where Jay says that the Dragon has willingly burned peasants, women and children to the death. I have to ask you one more time, what makes you think that the Lion hosted women and children in a military fortress about to be besieged? If they did so, with whom lies the fault? Please think about it. I must add that I'm talking to you as a fellow player but, if you feel necessary to have our discussion moderated, you may feel free contact Akodo Keisuke or any of the other mods. Also, if I get too ironic or sarcastic, please tell me, I tend to do that involuntarily sometimes.
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Post by Akodo Tsanuri on Apr 21, 2012 18:10:19 GMT -5
no, saying that you will take a souvenir of burned brick wasn't sarcastis at all. I don't know what you are talking about. don't tell me what my character is doing. you know nothing of her. I told you OOC why I think the war can't end here. don't pretend this talk didn't happen the fortress is in the city, on it's outskirts or so. explain me, how did you burned the city without touching the city? I don't see any sense in saying for the third time the same thing. of coarse you are good and nice, you didn't kill anyone. it was us. we killed our people, that's how twisted we are. we destroyed the fields, ate everything that was stored in the villages and so on. you won, as always. sorry Jin-san ![:(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/sad.png)
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Apr 21, 2012 18:32:10 GMT -5
Tsanuri-san, sorry if you took offense at Hiroshi's joke about this battle, but there was a healthy share of gloating when Toshi Ranbo fell too. If you are still feeling uncomfortable with it, I might limit my own provocations but I cannot control others. Still, if I do so, I will expect the same behaviour from you and yours.
Also, I'm not pretending that our talk didn't happen, it did and I liked it a lot. Still, you've said nothing in it about depicting us as child killers, I not only remember, I have them in my inbox still. And I did not presume anything about your character, I was talking about you, as a storyteller, as the player, not about Tsanuri the Akodo bushi.
Please explain to me why do you assume that we have burned a city if it says so nowhere? Jay didn't say anything about it, we have not RPed anything of the sort. Jay's description is about the defenders of the castle and the castle itself, not about a city and civilians.
I must say again that, as a player, I have nothing against the Lions (despite your questionable taste when choosing a Clan. Yes, this is me joking), I even admire your unity as a Clan. I am also fond of you and Keisuke and was fond of Tomatsu when he was still around. But, in game, we are enemies and I would kill any of your characters, all of them dangerous bushi, without a second thought. I do not intend to paint you in a degrading way, this is far from my intentions, I simply wish to solve this problem without having to fight against you, the player. We, the Clans loyal to Hantei, did not "won, as always". We have lost Toshi Ranbo, the Crane has lost a city and the beginning of the war was very disheartening for everyone in our side. But we got past that and now we have won a truly crucial victory, alongside with other important victories, and that speaks of our joint effort (much of it was also because the Scorpion, a Clan full of former Toturi supporters, swore allegiance to the Hantei, thanks to Moyotoshi's sacrifice). I have no wish to diminish your own efforts or ridicule the Clans who support Toturi. I can even sympathize and understand what everyone who choose your side is feeling now, after CotSS (especially the Lion, who has now lost 3 territories), but these difficulties do not give you the right to paint us as the devil and treat that as truth.
I sincerely hope that you understand what I'm trying to say and, as I've mentioned before, I'm more than willing to work with you all towards telling a good story together. I won't deny that witnessing your brethren being burned alive by your side is horrible, nor will I deny the horror that everyone at CotSS might've witnessed. But those were bushi, they were soldiers and that was a military fortress and training ground, do you expect me to concede that, somehow, you kept women and children around in the middle of a war facility when you had all the reason in the world not to? You may call my character a monster, in some degrees he is, but he is not that kind of monster. Neither are those who fought by my side and, in the same way you believe in your allies, i believe in mine.
Sincerely,
Tamori Manji
EDIT: Saiko-san, I completely agree with you. I would even suggest that not only this discussion but some of the other posts, not related to Jin-san's dramatic last stand, be also moved to another, more generic thread, about the fall of CotSS. I will suggest this to the other mods.
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Akodo Kenzo
Lion Clan
Lion Clan * Bushi * Tactician * Shireikan of the Akodo Army * Ambassador to the Scorpion Clan
Posts: 371
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Post by Akodo Kenzo on Apr 21, 2012 21:11:48 GMT -5
For those of us that burned all of our Rallying Cries at CotSS, are we going to be able to do the new river action at all? Hmm, I hadn't realized how scarce rallying cries were currently - I went ahead and changed this action to no longer cost Rallying Cry; instead it will drop one occasionally. Thanks!
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Takezo
Dragon Clan
Shugyosha, Loyal retainer of Toturi, Dragon Champion-in-exile
Posts: 415
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Post by Takezo on Apr 21, 2012 23:20:12 GMT -5
I've seen a number of fairly agitated comments both here, in the CotSS related threads in the Lion public forum, and in the Dragon private forum concerning both the outcome of the CotSS battle AND the (mostly) Toturi-side depiction of the effect and aftermath of the Dragon fire attack on the castle; I'd like to briefly address some points.
(Caveat, if somehow a reader of this doesn't know, my character, Takezo, is an ardent (and significant) supporter of Toturi.)
First, as to the fairness of the game, or lack thereof: while not a perfect game (I've discussed this elsewhere recently), I find it actually to have a high degree of transparency. It's fairly straightforward - clicks decide what happens. In some sense, for good or ill, it is very, very democratic - indeed, a popularity contest. EVERYONE, from level 1 to level 300, has 1440 points to spend daily on actions and/or sending gifts. If there is a contest between, say, Lion and Dragon players, and there are more Dragon than Lion, and everyone plays, the Dragon will win regardless of any mitigating factors (since there are none). The converse is equally true. Skill is of no matter, save for ability to click and a stable internet connection.
This is not fancy at all.
Granted, the game can be gamed - coalitions can be formed to get more clicks and so on - but this is not a violation of some kind of ToS. It is not cheating, and hence is fair.
In retrospect, I think that, while narratively interesting, a civil war was probably a mistake game-wise, simply because it was an irreversible, zero-sum action, but an unforeseen consequence does not equate with unfair bias (though selective perception may cause it to appear as such).
The notion of, whether one has won or lost, and if one has lost whether the whole affair was a waste of time, is a personal perception; to think this way is NOT WRONG. It is also not right, necessarily; I do not regard Takezo's efforts as having been a waste of time, but then the nature of my "play" may be different from others.
(I don't intend to single out Ikoma Kibo, by the way - I immensely respect her efforts in-game, and I have been the very fortunate recipient of her daily, unwavering gifts of medium infantry for literally months and months (and I thank you, Ikoma-san). She just happens to have voiced strong regret in her efforts, and the strength of her emotions (she IS an Ikoma!) has moved me, in part, to address this).
tl;dr: Those who are very upset by the results at CotSS should be respected for their feelings, but this does not *justify* the feelings. On balance, Jay IS fair, as is his game implementation.
...
Next, there has been some umbrage among the Dragon Hanteists who are concerned that their excellently conceived RP version of the fire attacks - the formation of an elemental dragon which is unleashed on the castle - has been twisted by bitter Toturists into an evil and monstrous act, involving the slaying of innocents and so on.
I am going to take at least partial responsibility for the Toturist interpretation, as I described the attack as a nuclear-weapon style devastation. I want to detail my thinking here, in hope that I might diffuse this issue:
First, my intent was NOT a big "screw you guys!" to the Dragon.
I decided that weaving such a huge, unprecedented spell would be interesting if it had unforeseen consequences; my inspiration was Oppenheimer's reaction when he saw the first atomic bomb test, during the Manhattan Project, quoting Shiva in the Bhagavad-gita: "I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds". I imagined the thrill of the ritual's success might be tempered by the horror of its power, in much the same way the Manhattan Project scientists were horrified by the annihilation of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
My idea was that the formation of such a powerful elemental fire effect would fundamentally undermine the elemental balance of the whole region, expanding the effect beyond even the Dragons' imagining - hence my description of its horrific blast rending the flesh from the dying and so on. I imagined further that the region might be elementally unbalanced for generations after (analogous to fallout), becoming a blasted wasteland of perpetual fires and blazing mists, elementally haunted. I still think it's an interesting fate for the region.
In RP posts, others added to this a bit, and suddenly it started forming up as an atrocity: so powerful a spell, certainly, would not be selective who it killed - it simply kills everything (enraged fire kami are not to be trifled with!) Indeed, in my own description, I mentioned the blast destroying Toturist and Hanteist both; anyone hapless enough to be in the area of effect.
Without analyzing all that has been said, I'm going to try to make a reasonable statement:
The Dragon spell destroyed the Castle of the Swift Sword completely. The nature of the attack being, essentially, a fire dragon, all within or near the castle were slain, save for those stalwart heroes with very great Earth rings (like Takezo, Keisuke and others). As a full-on castle, of course there were civilians there (cooks, maids and so on), and likely some families, and even some children. Was this a teeming town filled with schoolyards and playing children? Of course not. Is it reasonable to assume all the families were evacuated? I'd say not, simply because it WAS a castle under siege, and evacuation isn't really tenable. It was a military stronghold, with the attendant personnel which are attached to such; imagine an American military base being destroyed - beyond the barracks and armories, that would include the P/X, married soldier housing, possibly a school or two, churches - the stuff of daily life. It's also VERY clear the Dragon had no *intent* to slay innocents and so on. Like sinking a ship, though, it sometimes happens.
In my view, it's narratively interesting if the annihilation of CotSS is an unintended atrocity. Certainly that provides for more interesting RP conflict than simply "cool! that worked!". Likewise, the simplistic demonization of the Dragon isn't very interesting, and it also isn't very honest. I think the best interpretation is that the Dragon, desperate for a victory they considered not likely (especially with the departure of the Crane), wove a spell of unprecedented power, and then got what they wished for. And as we all know, sometimes that's not a wholly good thing.
...
So, I'd like to see a diminution of this kind of polar disagreement between the two halves of the playerbase. Take the civil war back in game.
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quarim
Dragon Clan
Merchant*Qolat*Gaijin
Posts: 334
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Post by quarim on Apr 21, 2012 23:50:38 GMT -5
Takezo, I love your interpretation of what happened and agree.
As far as Jay being fair I understand why some are upset. I believe whole heartedly that Jay tries to be fair. But at times makes unbalanced actions. He has even admitted mistakes. Mistakes are just that: mistakes. I don't believe Jay has a bias but sometimes things get away from him or he is not paying attention to the impact of various actions (look three posts above this one for an example). It's reasonable that people get upset when things like that happen.
The fire blossom issue I don't think would have been nearly as bad if the Lion knew from the start that those clicks would continue to count regardless of the 3:1 odds the Dragon needed to overcome. In addition Jay removed the action the Lion had clicked the most. He even admitted he did not see that when he did it. So no I don't think Jay is bias but confusion and mistakes lead to alot of people feeling cheated. I understand that even though I don't agree with it.
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Akodo Kenzo
Lion Clan
Lion Clan * Bushi * Tactician * Shireikan of the Akodo Army * Ambassador to the Scorpion Clan
Posts: 371
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Post by Akodo Kenzo on Apr 22, 2012 1:13:07 GMT -5
I've seen a number of fairly agitated comments both here, in the CotSS related threads in the Lion public forum, and in the Dragon private forum concerning both the outcome of the CotSS battle AND the (mostly) Toturi-side depiction of the effect and aftermath of the Dragon fire attack on the castle; I'd like to briefly address some points. <snip> With all due respect, Takezo, I have to disagree with both of the main points that I've taken from your post: specifically, that the Toturi players are unjustified in being upset at the results of CotSS and that demonizing the Dragon for their firestorm is somehow unfair. Those of us who played the defending side at CotSS are upset, yes. While I can't speak for everyone on my side, I can tell you that losing isn't the main reason I'm upset as a player, although it is certainly a factor. The main reason that I'm upset, though, is this dawning feeling of helplessness. I feel helpless because, even though I've known it rationally for some time, it's finally sunk in that the nature of this game is exactly as you say: it's a popularity contest, pure and simple. Skill, tactics, narrative, and even setting canon are all irrelevant. The only thing that determines the direction of this setting's plot is the number of active players on each side, and the cold hard truth is that the Hantei forces have more players. Not just more, but a lot more, and I suspect the outcome of this most recent battle has finally driven that home for most of us. We can't win. It's impossible. The Toturi forces aren't as popular as the Hantei forces and so we will lose, all other factors be damned. Yet despite that, and again I can only speak for myself here, I feel trapped. I'm attempting to play as a Lion bushi would, to the best of my limited ability. Canon Rokugan is very much a victory-or-death culture as I understand it, which means that suing for peace or taking the easy way out via the three cuts simply aren't options. The clan choice I lightly made so long ago dictates that I fight to the last, even to no avail. Sure, I could just throw all pretense of setting or narrative aside and do what I the player want, but those are precisely the things that make this game worth playing; without them I might as well be wasting my time in Mafia Wars. So I, the player, am left with the awful choice of continuing to participate in a hellish losing slog with no end in sight, or throw up my hands in defeat and quit the game entirely. The hostility, derision, and overall unpleasantness from both sides in the forums of late only exacerbates the problem. This situation upsets me greatly and I believe that my rationale is very much justified for the reasons I've laid out here. As for the Dragon and their fire dragon, I think they deserve all the demonization they get. You call it an unintended atrocity, because that's what would be most interesting from a narrative perspective. I think that's almost a fair description. The problem that this leaves you with, though, is that an unintended atrocity is still an atrocity. Forces of immense devastation were unleashed, deliberately so. Innocent people died. These facts are incontrovertible and are worth an awful lot of in-character enmity on their own. In character, the Dragon forces' intentions aren't worth the scrolls they're written on in the face of death and destruction on that scale, doubly so if the fallout idea you mention gets any kind of traction. Out of character, it's just salt in the wound for a group of players already justifiably upset. Note, however, that I previously said "almost a fair description". The problem is that, by my reckoning at least, the results of the ritual weren't simply unintended, they were negligent. The Dragon shugenja knew that they were preparing a fire ritual of massive destructive power. They knew that they'd never done anything on that scale before and that they couldn't be certain what the results would be. They knew, or damn well should have known, that they were releasing it into an environment containing a large number of people: active combatants, incapacitated combatants, and civilians alike. And they did it anyway. They knowingly released immense, indiscriminate death that they couldn't be certain they could control into an area that contained people not actively fighting them. If I were a lawyer, I'd call that depraved indifference to human life. And that's more or less the way my character sees it too. So yeah, my character's going to keep demonizing the Dragon for this and feel entirely justified in doing so.
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Post by Hida Joji on Apr 22, 2012 1:38:02 GMT -5
I don't care if more players support Hantei, I don't care if they click more that Kaneka's side. I only care that the actions supporting the race are balanced. Not equal, just balanced and I think this was a big case of lesson learned.
Then it's up to the players to win or lose and the story team ( Jay AFAIK ) to keep the story going. Not all story decisions have to be about the future of the empire... smaller stakes empire-wise can be exciting too.
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Shosuro Aroru
Scorpion Clan
Scorpion Clan Ninja * Duelist
Posts: 625
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Post by Shosuro Aroru on Apr 22, 2012 1:42:07 GMT -5
....I'm not sure why you think Lions are less prone to seppuku than other clans, following a stricter code of bushido would in my mind make it more prone. As far as being upset about the popularity contest aspect of it, it was that aspect that made the Lion side with Kaneka. Do you honestly think the Lion, the right hand of the emperor, would rebel against him for a man who already abdicated any claim to the throne? A bastard child of the former emperor at that. I understand that it sucks to see the writing on the wall and I do think that Jay has let this civil war run on for way too long. If you really don't want to play this character anymore, have him die at the CotSS. You don't have to do something that's out of his character to do and you can make a new character without quitting the game entirely.
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Post by Hida Joji on Apr 22, 2012 1:46:34 GMT -5
Aroru... once again going back to the original clan wars... The Lion eventually fell behind Toturi, after Matsu whatever commited seppuku.
So Lion following their deposed champion after that failed the emporer only to rise to power as a ronin who happened to be a thunder and eventually to emporer ?
Seen that got the T-shirt.
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Post by Hida Joji on Apr 22, 2012 1:50:50 GMT -5
Oh, any chance to get the Rallying cries I spent on the Rally Troops action on drowned merchant river?
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Hitsuzu
Dragon Clan
Ronin, Ise Zumi, Bloodspeaker's bane, Friendly Traveller (with Sak
Posts: 52
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Post by Hitsuzu on Apr 22, 2012 5:48:15 GMT -5
Didin't know about the fire dragon thingy, but it's quite a good means to explain the alchemical fires (since there not much alchemists on dragon lands... Why, there are not many people at all). So this fire storm, or dragon, or whatever, was unleashed because the dragon army was facing too much military power. Ok. It killed a lot of people, including a few civilians (those who were inside the castle : city's civilians would have fled when they heard about the dragon's impending arrival, and I don't think the dragon would have given chase to them). From a Hantei follower's point of view I can understand why they did it : out of despair, as a last stand, as a demonstration of raw power against a would-be usurper. Ok.
But they burnt a town and a castle to the ground, not even taking into account the spiritual devastation of the area. I think it is a lot to bear for the quiet and mostly peaceful dragon clan.
As a strict Toturi follower, I think we've lost this battle, this very important and long and atrocious battle, but the few which are left must be strong-willed as Crab, and this devastation proved their point : an emperor which destroys part of his land is not fit for the task.
Again, I like this game, and I know and respect the fact that it is first and foremost JAY LUO's game, and only his. So even if for my appreciation it unbalanced, I won't say it is a bad game. I will not be happy, but I have to respect what Jay is wanting to do.
So quit whining, fellow Toturist, let's show that even against this odds, they won't break us.
P.S : I only lack 1 kaneka's favor to master "Toturi's Council: Prepare for Battle". I hope I will have it form my second hundredth "Attend the Court of Toturi the 3rd"...
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Enishi
Dragon Clan
Ninja * shadow * tattooed * Mad prophet of Nothing
Posts: 254
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Post by Enishi on Apr 22, 2012 6:26:15 GMT -5
I'm pretty reluctant to post here as the stress level is through the roof, and for reasons I perfectly understand and respect. I' just like to add a few things though and I hope no one takes them as attacks or whatever. First, I have to sympathize with Kenzo's first point. Although I agree with Takezo when he says no one is cheating, it can't be anything but disheartening/annoying/infuriating to know that the game basically sets you up to lose because of the way it works. I'm not speaking of specific actions there but of sheer numerical advantage, as he pointed out. I'm firmly convinced that the civil war was a great story decision but a bad game decision because the game's mechanisms are not designed to handle it properly and make it interesting. This is not saying Jay did something "wrong" when he started it: I don't think this problem was obvious before it occured, and again, the story behind it is great. So thanks Jay. So my first point was: yes, I think the Lion are understandably upset, with the caveat that please don't be upset against fellow players because, really, nothing they can do about it either. On the whole war atrocity thing, I was going to discuss a lot of things but I guess after thinking about it, it boils down to this: if you want to roleplay with someone, don't force them into a position they don't want to roleplay. This is collaborative fun, not a real civil war. Most of you are far more experienced play-by-forum roleplayers than I am, but I think in this regard it works the same as any pen-and-paper RP or whatever: it's all about finding a story where everybody has fun and gets to do things they enjoy. If you want to play with someone who is a heartless monster doing horrible and things and not caring, play with Shoju ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) or anyone who's cool with that and actually is in it for that. Otherwise, we'll just end up with the Lion RPing the fall of the swift sword in one thread, the Dragon RPing a whole different fall of the swift sword in another thread, lots of people angry at each other and good RP opportunities wasted. As for myself, I'm with Takezo on that. I think it's great to have a dark and traumatic side to this story as the battle and its conclusions were very unconventional. But I don't think it should be pushed too hard. Remember no one ever signed to become an evil butcher slaughtering women and children by the dozen and that's not even the choice that was given in-game. I really think we can meet halfway and have that battle be something that will be remembered with fear, not because it was the work of uncaring madmen but because it was normal, honourable people dedicated to what they felt was their duty on both sides and it escalated into something horrible. Again, I hope no one takes offense and as always, you're free to disagree with me... Please just don't be an a** about it ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Apr 22, 2012 6:59:48 GMT -5
Everyone, as a Mod, I've decided to move mine and Tsanuri's on-going discussion, regarding the RP related to the CotSS's downfall and currently cluttering Jin-san's thread, here since it seems like the proper place. Its the first time I move something around so, bear with me please.
As for the discussion already going on here, I agree with some of Takezo's points and I completely agree with Enishi. The thing is, RPing anywhere, be it forums or game tables, isn't about what you or me want, individually, its about sharing. I'm more than willing to discuss story points with my fellow players so that we can reach a common ground but I'm not interested in having story aspects not directly related to the events in EE imposed on me and I truly believe no one is. If the current stress regarding this war continues as is, I prefer to avoid RPing altogether than creating yet another reason for people to be mad, disappointed and such, as I believe that is not the point of RPG's. Role playing, in my opinion, is not about "I win, you lose" situations (even though we may face those situations during our RP) but about creating something of worth together, something that will give us pleasure (even if it is a sick kind of pleasure) and that we will remember in times to come. So, I have only one thing to ask: please work with me.
EDIT: Moved the posts successfully but, for some reason, they went to the end of page 1 and beginning of page 2. I'll see if I can somehow change their order because I thought they would be placed at the end of the thread. As a reminder, my discussion with Tsanuri started due to my OoC answer and IC post in Jin-san's thread on Shiro Akodo.
Before I forget, as a Mod, I'm always open to complaints, suggestions and the like, so, feel free to contact me if you have anything to say.
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