Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Apr 22, 2012 19:12:28 GMT -5
I don't disagree with you, especially because the nature of a Clan does not always dictates, although it guides, the behavior of its singular members and even what that "nature" is can be interpreted in different ways by its families. The problem with this situation is that, as much as the Lion found themselves in a corner, according to your arguments, the Dragon was also in such situation. What can be done when your enemy is determined to fight to the death? That's a very difficult question to answer and fighting to protect not only yourselves but also your enemies in a open conflict is an almost impossible task. The Dragon found themselves, with no hope of support (save from what I would call "Scorpion specialized troops"), in the middle of enemy territory, between two hostile armies, one of them commanded by the rebel leader (a brilliant strategist in his own right). I won't say what its justifiable and what's not, but there are no easy answers here. Also, as you've mentioned, deploying shugenja in a battlefield situation is a very dangerous thing, which is why its so rare and why shugenja are so feared and respected. But both the Dragon and the Phoenix are Clans notable for their "supernatural" abilities, so, how are they supposed to fight against the most powerful military Clans of Rokugan (the Unicorn, the Crab and the Lion) without fully employing their magical might? I can't imagine anyone would require or expect them to do so because that would be akin to asking them to lose on purpose. That said, during this war, as it became clear with the Scorpion, neutrality wasn't an option, so none of the Clans could simply refuse to fight for their side of choice (or refuse to choose a side. Refusing to protect the Emperor would also be something that an honorable rokugani would never think about). Again, no easy answers. EDIT: ETA: Also consider that this isn't the first Lion castle to fall. The Emerald Champion seems to have managed to take Permission City and Crossroads Castle without razing the structure to the ground. I think it's fair to say that the Dragon might have gone a step beyond simple seige. I agree, except for the fact that the Emerald Champion had a safe, previously conquered, location at his back and wasn't fighting armies from two different Clans, one of them commanded by Toturi himself, at the time. The situations cannot be compared (especially because he had support of the Phoenix at the time and they were, strangely, focusing on earth magic).
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Post by Hida Joji on Apr 22, 2012 19:16:56 GMT -5
I like the ideas and views, the going to far to win AND winning. How do you deal with it? You won! Obviously you did the right thing! The Lion not backing down because Kaneka is there and they cannot! Kaneka beeing there and forcing everyone's hands!
Suddenly, for me, CoTSS is a much much denser event. Very very cool!
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Post by Togashi Homsar on Apr 22, 2012 22:19:46 GMT -5
ETA: Also consider that this isn't the first Lion castle to fall. The Emerald Champion seems to have managed to take Permission City and Crossroads Castle without razing the structure to the ground. I think it's fair to say that the Dragon might have gone a step beyond simple seige. The castle had terrible feng shui and just had to go.
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Post by Soshi Kiso on Apr 22, 2012 23:57:05 GMT -5
I like the idea of the courts exploring the concept of the Dragon "going too far" to win. It seems a fitting situation for say, the imperial families(more Miya/Otomo then Seppun) to start intervening to resolve the civil war.
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Post by Isawa Okibi on Apr 23, 2012 18:13:20 GMT -5
Well I am all for constructively channeling all this drama into the RP & game itself.
My only comment is be a little careful with all of this fire dragon stuff. Until Jay puts an action in the game about it we have to assume that this is merely RP-only flavor text.
Regardless it was a long, bloody battle, likely diminishing all armies. I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop and a greater threat finds us with so few warriors still alive.
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Post by Shoju on Apr 23, 2012 18:18:14 GMT -5
I'm working on it
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Akodo Kenzo
Lion Clan
Lion Clan * Bushi * Tactician * Shireikan of the Akodo Army * Ambassador to the Scorpion Clan
Posts: 371
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Post by Akodo Kenzo on Apr 23, 2012 21:56:33 GMT -5
Well I am all for constructively channeling all this drama into the RP & game itself. My only comment is be a little careful with all of this fire dragon stuff. Until Jay puts an action in the game about it we have to assume that this is merely RP-only flavor text. Regardless it was a long, bloody battle, likely diminishing all armies. I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop and a greater threat finds us with so few warriors still alive. It doesn't have to have been a fire dragon like in the RP thread for the same comments to apply. Of course, if it's not then it only reflects worse on them. Then there's no "Oh holy shit, what the hell was that?!" to shield themselves with, it's just them choosing to burn a castle to the ground with everyone inside.
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Tamori Koichi
Dragon Clan
Dragon Clan * Shugenja * Earth * Void * Yamabushi * Duelist
Posts: 228
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Post by Tamori Koichi on Apr 24, 2012 0:16:56 GMT -5
FYI, just so you know, the whole fire Dragon RP was pre-discussed and approved by 3 Toturi supporters namely Utaku Mai, Akodo Keisuke and Takezo. We had talked about it through PMs and had agreed that it seemed like a FUN thing to RP. If the results of CotSS had been different, it was agreed upon that the ritual would fail and would cost the alchemists dearly.
If it doesn't jive with you, then just ignore it.
Nobody's forcing you to RP with us. Nobody's forcing you to accept that as what really happened. Nobody said that it had to be the canon story for EE. We (contrary to what others might believe) don't have Jay's ears to ourselves.
Like what Tsanuri said, it's a personal interpretation, which we are all free to do so. I personally don't like the Lion slandering us, but then I know better than to tell them that. It's their interpretation. There's really nothing to gain.
If it pleases you, then RP a story where Dragon light infantry, medium infantry, duelists, and monks came and continuously threw potions at a castle that was deemed impenetrable. Quite sticking to the facts but makes for pretty boring RP in my opinion.
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Akodo Kenzo
Lion Clan
Lion Clan * Bushi * Tactician * Shireikan of the Akodo Army * Ambassador to the Scorpion Clan
Posts: 371
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Post by Akodo Kenzo on Apr 24, 2012 0:33:00 GMT -5
I don't actually object to the fire dragon ritual idea. I think it's a pretty cool idea. My character objects to his home being burned to slag with a whole lotta people inside.
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Tamori Koichi
Dragon Clan
Dragon Clan * Shugenja * Earth * Void * Yamabushi * Duelist
Posts: 228
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Post by Tamori Koichi on Apr 24, 2012 0:51:10 GMT -5
I have no qualms to you objecting to that. It is what it is since that was what Jay stated in the news as what happened to CotSS. Do the Dragon enjoy that we were painted as having killed everybody to win? Most likely not. But we'll take it since it makes for interesting RP.
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Akodo Kenzo
Lion Clan
Lion Clan * Bushi * Tactician * Shireikan of the Akodo Army * Ambassador to the Scorpion Clan
Posts: 371
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Post by Akodo Kenzo on Apr 24, 2012 1:17:01 GMT -5
Well, I'm sorry that you don't enjoy being painted that way, but there's not really much that can be done about that. I mean, burnination got more than three times the clicks of any other action on your plate and more than everything else combined; setting fire to the castle was far and away the Dragon's primary tactic. I really don't see how that can be interpreted as anything but "kill[ing] everybody to win".
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Tamori Koichi
Dragon Clan
Dragon Clan * Shugenja * Earth * Void * Yamabushi * Duelist
Posts: 228
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Post by Tamori Koichi on Apr 24, 2012 1:30:44 GMT -5
How about this. The Dragon alchemists use their potions to concentrate an attack that blows away a certain part of the northern wall of Castle of the Swift Sword. This causes a big enough break in the castle's impenetrable defense that allows the Dragon army to storm the castle and take it in tact. See. A plausible story as well while still holding true to the statistics. No need for killing innocents, unless of course, the kitchen, kid's playground or the family quarters of the Lion there were situated right next to that wall. ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png)
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Akodo Kenzo
Lion Clan
Lion Clan * Bushi * Tactician * Shireikan of the Akodo Army * Ambassador to the Scorpion Clan
Posts: 371
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Post by Akodo Kenzo on Apr 24, 2012 2:04:08 GMT -5
Look, it's late. I don't see how anyone could possibly categorize hurling over forty-four thousand Molotov cocktails as some kind of precision strike designed to minimize collateral damage and loss of life, much less the summoning of a massive dragon spirit made of fire. But whatever. You can rationalize your clan's actions and the stigma you've brought on yourselves however you like. I'm going to bed.
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Tamori Koichi
Dragon Clan
Dragon Clan * Shugenja * Earth * Void * Yamabushi * Duelist
Posts: 228
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Post by Tamori Koichi on Apr 24, 2012 2:24:23 GMT -5
It's mid-afternoon where I am. The fire dragon was put up after this, Alchemical fires employed by the Dragon have overwhelmed the defenders at Castle of the Swift Sword, despite the valor of the Lion and an attempt by Toturi's Army to lift the siege. The very stones of Shiro sano Ken Hayai have melted and most of the castle inhabitants have perished in the inferno. was already announced. We just gave it a richer context for an interesting RP with those who wanted to. But whatever is spot on. No explanation will be good enough for people who have already set up their mind on something. Any further discussion is pointless. I'm out.
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Post by Akodo Tsanuri on Apr 24, 2012 3:51:35 GMT -5
and I've got morning ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) I just love it. you yourself quoted information from Jay that you burned whole castle ('the very stone of SsKH have melted') and nearly everybody that was there ('and most of the castle inhabitants have perished in the inferno') and you are trying to convice us that what? you didn't kill them? we don't care wheather it was throwing elixirs or creating fire dragon (which was great for rp purposes, as Kenzo earlier said) we are talking about results of your actions. they were presented by Jay, so not much you cn do there. you killed nearly everybody. I hope you did it to win. that's very good explanation during war. far better than "because we could". <it's sarcasm free. I really think like that> you may object to how we see you, but you can't change that easily. for sure not quarrelling here. you have many players actively rping. you have characters with great possibilities, you can have npcs. if you so hate the opinion you have now, show us there is something else.
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