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Post by Hida Joji on Apr 22, 2012 7:22:00 GMT -5
It's cool to see the RP coloring the game with such strong colors. Then, as usual, in RP the event can be viewed in a lot of different ways... here are a few:
1) The Dragon went too far! Hantei denies them and makes peace while cleaning his own part in the matter! 2) Kaneka brought this upon himself. Don't hurt the empire anymore! Yield! 3) This means WAR! Spiritual and physical! 4) This means we must have peace, this was too much! No honor or glory is to be had with these actions. Both sides must enter a compromise. 5) Dragon, Scorpion and Phoenix are the power and must be given a front seat of power. Think Gozoku. 6) Blame spider! ....
Point is: This became a great event that add dimension to the battle by taking it to an extreme level. It made the battle a very very pitched affair, I got he idea that Kaneka would have won but for the ritual. This raises questions about being the protector of the empire and "causing" this to happen, at the same time the Dragon must question too what they did and their allies as well.
Great piece of RP, opens a lot of roads and we, as a whole, can choose where to go and how to view this.
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Utaku Mai
Unicorn Clan
*Battle Maiden* *Paragon of Honor* *Goddamn Rockstar*
Posts: 484
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Post by Utaku Mai on Apr 22, 2012 8:35:27 GMT -5
I don't have too much to add (I think Takezo, Manji, and Joji are pretty much pulling my own thoughts from my head), but I just want to say a few things: This forum is awesome. I love (love love love love!) roleplaying here. Before this battle resolved I was so sad that the whole forum seemed to be slowing down to nothing. There were so few posters around, and it seemed like there just wasn't anything I could do to make it better. Suddenly, in the past week, I've been excited to check the boards for new RP posts. There is some great stuff going on, and I'm super happy to be a part of it. We would all do well to remember that while our characters may be fierce bushi, powerful shugenja, or bitchy battle maidens ( ) we are in actuality real people with very real feelings behind the digital masks of our respective internet connections. IC drama is all well and good, but OOC drama will do nothing but hurt us in the long term. No one will want to play with us if we act like bullies to one another. Before you do anything on the board, just give a little thought to how it might be perceived by others. Avoid Negative Play Experiences, as it were. Acts of cruelty or bitterness will only turn people away, and none of us should want that. The lack of face-to-face interaction adds another step of difficulty to this, where our words can be interpreted in ways that we do not intend, but that's only more reason to put care into the words we use when interacting with one another. There's nothing wrong with your character being hotheaded and accusatory (if there is I'm in serious trouble!) but when the IC glasses come off, it needs to disappear. Would it surprise you to know that Shoju and I get along fantastically well, even though our characters totally hate each other? Mutual respect and dare I say friendship only makes the IC stuff better, and lets us have more fun. In regards to the clicky game mechanic: I share in the frustration of those that were defeated at CotSS, I really do, but in the end I have to agree with Takezo. It was all about the clicks. Our great GM in the sky has had some great moments in shaping the narrative of the game, but sometimes things happen that he just can't foresee, and that's okay. Maybe it wouldn't be what we'd do if we ran the game, but it's interesting stuff to explore to be sure. Think of how it feels to think that the deck is stacked against you and remember: The spider feel this way *all the time*.
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quarim
Dragon Clan
Merchant*Qolat*Gaijin
Posts: 334
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Post by quarim on Apr 22, 2012 10:06:43 GMT -5
Yay Mai understands us! I agree with everything she says.
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Shosuro Aroru
Scorpion Clan
Scorpion Clan Ninja * Duelist
Posts: 625
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Post by Shosuro Aroru on Apr 22, 2012 11:13:34 GMT -5
...I don't do rping on here precisely for stuff like this. However, it's my understanding that you aren't supposed to tell other people what they do with their characters. In this regard I don't think you can tell the dragon what they did with anything. The clicky game action mentions nothing about summoning anything and is really no different than using catapults of burning pitch. Trying to get back at people through rp because you're upset about a clicky game loss just doesn't work.
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Utaku Mai
Unicorn Clan
*Battle Maiden* *Paragon of Honor* *Goddamn Rockstar*
Posts: 484
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Post by Utaku Mai on Apr 22, 2012 11:46:06 GMT -5
The summoning thing was actually originated by dragon players (Enishi or Manji, maybe? I don't remember) that was first brought to my attention via PMs a few weeks ago. It was their idea, as a strictly RP move, to set up a big display of fire magic that would either succeed or fail depending on how the battle turned out. I thought it sounded interesting, and even made an alt to try and 'thwart' that attempt (which petered out due to my own lameness in posting), but I never thought there was anything wrong with it so far as the forum game/clicky game synergy was concerned.
As to the moral consequences of that action...I'll leave it to the dragon players, but once again I agree with Takezo. There's a reason why the Phoenix are so pacifistic. Every time they've used magic on a large scale, it's been simultaneously incredible and devastating. This is a major theme that runs through stories of L5R and has caused some heroes more than a little bit of angst. I hope it's something that dragon players can feel inspired to take on in the coming stories, that they can think through the potential kharmic consequence of something like this. Otherwise there's nothing keeping them from using it all the time, and the whole empire would be a charcoal briquette before too long.
For the *IC* (not OOC) response from the Toturi faction, I see the label of atrocity as understandable. "The castle inhabitants have perished in the fiery inferno" is not what I'd call happy imagery. The Lion who did not lose their lives have lost a cherished home (for many a birthplace) and an honored training ground likely full of nostalgic memories of their youth. They are mourning, and as such are trying to place blame in order to come to terms with what happened.
OOC response from the Toturists, IMO, could stand to simmer down a bit. Once again, we're all playing the same game here. Everyone should please try to get along and be civil.
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Post by Akodo Tsanuri on Apr 22, 2012 11:49:02 GMT -5
with thinking like that rping here doesn't make sense. most of what is happening here is our interpretation and ideas and goes far away from what is stated (by Jay). with every word you say or every action you take you may insult somebody.
NOBODY WAS TELLING THE DRAGONS WHAT THEY WERE DOING. IT WAS JUST MY CHARACTER'S INTERPRETATION. why for heaven's sake can't SHE say what SHE thinks? isn't rping JUST about THAT?!
as a player I NEVER said dragons were slaying or people purposelessly. I don't recall ANY OF US saying that.
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Apr 22, 2012 12:35:23 GMT -5
Disclaimer: I'll post here what were, fundamentally, my personal answers to Tsanuri, in our private conversations, because I think the points I made are relevant to this discussion as a whole.To be fair Tsanuri-san, I see no problem with that argument being raised by your character or by others loyal to Toturi, what bothers me is everyone acting like it was the truth. By this I mean that I have no problem with the Lion seeing what we did as a monstrosity and adding flavor to it in the heat of emotions, but that is not what we've done. As I see it, the fall of CotSS is akin to a Pearl Harbor, not a Hiroshima/Nagasaki, as Takezo made it sound. It was an attack against a military base vital to the Lion war planning, not an attack against a civilian city. There might have been civilians present? I do not doubt it, after all, someone has to maintain the castle while the army fights. What I doubt is that there would be whole families still there, with children, in the middle of a war. The alchemical attacks were directed against the castle itself, not against the Lion populace or any other part of their provinces. During the fall of Toshi Ranbo, when you've won the battle, we did not RP the Lion army killing innocents because it is assumed that an army knows what it is doing. Collateral might be a harsh reality of war but intentionally attacking the helpless peasants? No, that's not something that the Dragon would do. By saying such you suggest that our alchemists are a bunch of incompetents who don't even know where they throw their bombs and that our shugenja can't control the kami they invoke. That is what I am against. I do not wish to diminish the horror, in the eyes of the Lions, of what we did to the Castle, but this is a war. Still, razing a castle is not the same as razing a whole city. Another thing about CotSS, a dojo is not simply a place for children (especially a prominent dojo like CotSS. Only the children of the most prominent Lion officers would be allowed to study at such a location), it is a place of learning for bushi of all ages. A bushi does not stop frequenting his dojo after his genpuku, warfare is a lifelong learning process. CotSS was a military center, the heart of the Lion's military operations. What I cannot understand is, why would the Lion willingly choose to keep children inside a war zone? The Dragon army took months to mobilize and then another month to decide if it was going to besige the Castle or not, why would the Lion just sit and wait as if nothing was happening? Would they not have evacuated those unable to fight or to contribute to the war effort from the Castle? (a fair question since these people would put a strain on their resources and the resources of a castle during a siege in the middle of the winter are a major concern) In real life terms, which american soldier, in their sane mind, would take his family to Afghanistan or Iraq during the american military interventions? Soldiers do not keep their families amidst the battlefield (not if they can help it at least). There's also the fact that not all castles have cities adjacent to them or are located amidst a city. A castle is, first and foremost, a military structure, some castles just happened to be the center of activity in their regions and also the safest places around, which drove people to build cities near them. If you check the maps, you'll see that CotSS is simply a location within the Hayai province of the Kitsu family. It is a center for military activity, housing the Akodo dojo, shugenja temples of the Kitsu family and the offices of the provincial governors but the castle is not a city. This is clearly not Chushinbu Shiro, located in the middle of Tonfajutsen, that is my main point. I know the L5R wikia is far from ideal, but it is moderately useful to help visualize the situation: l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Hayai_Provincel5r.wikia.com/wiki/Shiro_sano_Ken_Hayail5r.wikia.com/wiki/Castle_of_the_Swift_Sword_DojoAnd I do agree with Mai when she says that actions of such spiritual relevance should have consequences (I also think Joji's last post was extremely relevant). But these consequences, if they are to be used in RP, must be a collective creation, not an imposition. I must reinforce the idea that I am here to discuss these points openly. In the same way that I do not wish to have things imposed upon me, I will also refuse to impose what I see as truth, thus, this is a debate, not a lecture and any of you may question me freely.
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Post by Akodo Tsanuri on Apr 22, 2012 12:59:16 GMT -5
if we are continuing here:
I want to stress, that I never OOC said that Dragons killed civilians on purpose. it just happened, by mistake, ricochette, gist of wind. if you create something that big as fire dragon, which was amazing spell, it's nearly impossible to control every tiny bit of it. calling it accident isn't the best word, but I hope you understand what I mean. to use common phrase: those were victims of war.
the difference between this battle and the rest is, that this is the only location that was utterly destroyed. so everywhere else you may assume some people will survive, here it is less probable. sure there will be a few people who lived, but far less that anywhere else. it doesn't matter much in rp threads, but if we want to be scientific correct, the walls were getting hoter and hoter with every spell you used. so at some point, some people might rosted just because of the temperature (or receive wounds or get sick and so on). that decreases number of survivors even more.
in the castle there had to be whole infrastructure: cooks, stable-boys, blacksmith, probably some stalls and so on. These people have families, same as many soldiers or bushi. moreover, during times of war, peasants, villagers and people from closest cities that are not fortified too much also gather in the fortress. in Pearl Harbour instead of just soldiers were much much more people
all our ground is war zone. we are not Americans from your example, but Iraqis or Afgans. what is a safer place than protected castle? all villages and towns are highly dangerous because of bandits and marouders. I know it's Rokugan, far better place than reality, but this is basic rule and it should apply. I'd say our people were more less equally distributed, probably some more in the south, near Crabs. but some of them could be everywhere.
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Apr 22, 2012 14:21:43 GMT -5
I do agree with many points that you raise but I think that, ultimately, the Lion would have, instead of gathering their whole population in a castle about to be besieged, moved them elsewhere, to a safer location, like Kyuden Ikoma. I say this because a Castle about to be attacked is definitely not the safest place around. The Iraqis and Afghans do not fight inside their own homes and guerrilla warfare (like the one employed by the Crane at Lonely Shore City via the usage of gaijin pepper) is definitely different than a siege. Many territories of the Lion are still untouched by war and I cannot understand why those unable to fight and die for the Clan wouldn't be moved to these locations. As I've said before, this is a war, I think its fair to expect that the Lion would have prepared for such.
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Post by Akodo Tsanuri on Apr 22, 2012 15:24:28 GMT -5
it wasn't whole population, just part of it (last sentence of last post )
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Post by Hida Joji on Apr 22, 2012 15:54:39 GMT -5
It's a war, even in Rokugan it's the "civilians" that pay the tougher/higher bill. I can think, this is my own interpretation not fact, that the "excessive attack" was to destroy a part of Lion and Rokugani history, a place where Heroes of the empire, all the empire, trained, lived and died.
Civilian casualties? Well... Less Koku is always bad...
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Utaku Mai
Unicorn Clan
*Battle Maiden* *Paragon of Honor* *Goddamn Rockstar*
Posts: 484
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Post by Utaku Mai on Apr 22, 2012 16:04:05 GMT -5
I think there might be an interesting argument to make regarding who exactly an "enemy combatant" and "innocent" is in this situation. Let us consider the following:
-It would probably not be unheard of for children as young as 8 or 9 to act in supporting roles even in an ongoing battle, like an aide-de-camp to a high-ranking military leader, a messenger, or even just an errand-runner. Even "adults" post gempukku can be as young as fourteen or so. This would probably not be unheard of in any of the clans of Rokugan, and would be just sort of a fact of life. This might have an effect on who exactly we'd consider 'children' in a situation such as CotSS.
-heimin and eta would be plentiful in any kind of castle, particularly during a seige, to perform labor such as food preparation, laundry, blacksmithing, building repairs, caring for the wounded and dead, and any number of necessary but 'low' tasks. Anyone in a besieged castle would probably find themselves being put to work doing something, according to their skills and abilities -- ie, the elderly sensei might contribute to the arrow-making effort even if he himself is no longer able to fight or shoot.
-Rokugan is somewhat more centered on the "gender equality" scale and men and women are equally likely to be bushi. Women are just as likely to be on the walls waving weapons of their own as they are to be cowering in a corner with babes in arms.
-The Lion clan are particularly militaristic and instill a combative nature into their samurai from a young age, and I wouldn't think children of the samurai caste would be unheard of even in a besieged castle. It's like the movie "Master and Commander" -- the ship has several young boys who are not only contributing to battle when battle happens, but in the quiet times they are learning skills that will help them become better officers -- navigation, tactics, etc. Ultimately they are still considered soldiers, and cannonballs don't tend to discriminate when they start flying. I would think it's kind of similar in this case.
Just things to think about, I'm mostly just thinking things up that make sense in the world.
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Post by Akodo Tsanuri on Apr 22, 2012 16:42:36 GMT -5
I agree with Mai here. everybody might be useful. all hands on board or something like that. even 4-5 years could be useful, like looking for arrowheads or helping in common labors. but still those women who took sword to try to protect themselves or errand runners are civillians. they did everything they could to survive, but that doesn't make them soldiers.
I was thinking of the same type of practice experience for kids as you wrote it (and that's why we send kids to every castle that might be attacked - somebody must learn how to fight in practice to lead others in the future - joking).
sure it might be tough to say who is soldier and who's not. maybe the kid whose body I saw near the stairs was messenger and only thanks to the arrow in his throat we lost, but I don't see his story and possibilities, but an 8 years old child lying dead. (it's imagined situation) and with that view don't you think that emotional reaction is justified?
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Tamori Manji
Dragon Clan Mod
Demon Fox (妖狐)
?Dragon Clan ?Hatamoto ?Fire ?Void ?Yamabushi ?Tattoed ?Nonhuman
Posts: 922
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Post by Tamori Manji on Apr 22, 2012 17:25:57 GMT -5
I agree with you Mai. Still, by rokugani standards, these kinds of casualties are expected. These persons are the unavoidable collateral exactly because, even if they are not full-fledged warriors, they are in the battlefield fulfilling a battlefield function, or learning how to fulfill it (by this I do not mean that it is "right" or "wrong", just that it is a part of warfare. Same thing could be applied for Europe since most knights had young squires and so on). I think that the destruction of CotSS would be much more shocking because of what Joji said. We have just erased a very important piece of the Lion's history and, considering how they feel about their ancestors, I would wager that's a much bigger issue than the deaths of any of the classes of people that you've mentioned.
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Utaku Mai
Unicorn Clan
*Battle Maiden* *Paragon of Honor* *Goddamn Rockstar*
Posts: 484
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Post by Utaku Mai on Apr 22, 2012 18:26:56 GMT -5
I could see that, Manji. I could also see that it's possible for a different clan in this situation to have reacted differently with the potential destruction of their castle. In fact, we pretty much already have a counterpoint to this in the invasion of Toshi Ranbo: The Crane and Imperials saw that the battle could not be won and got their army (and their emperor) the heck out of there, leaving the city more-or-less intact. Is it the Lion's fault for continuing to fight to the last man, even until the walls literally melted around them? Getting people out would have meant that the Lion had no faith in the hearts of their men, or in the strength of their defenses. They had plenty of Hubris, yes, but that's not exactly news: the nature of the Lion has been remarkably consistent over the last thousand or so years. The Dragon would have been well aware of this in their own battle plans, and blaming the Lion for the death of their own people seems shifty at best as a result. ETA: Also consider that this isn't the first Lion castle to fall. The Emerald Champion seems to have managed to take Permission City and Crossroads Castle without razing the structure to the ground. I think it's fair to say that the Dragon might have gone a step beyond simple seige. Again, it's not my intent to dictate anything, but I start getting dubious when things like "the Dragon would always" or "The Dragon would never" start getting thrown around. War is complicated, as we can clearly tell from the length of this conversation. I think it would actually be really interesting to see court actions in the game that explore this. What the court thinks will likely dictate the fallout (political or otherwise) of the steps taken to take CotSS.
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